Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:17:14 -0800 (PST)
From: sukender1@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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doi la .pycyn.
Thanks for clarification.
I can imagine how you feel, because you are actually describing the=20
nightmare I was guessing.
I personally still have (a bit of) hope, but if what you say is true, that=
=20
may require more sacrifices from some people. Indeed, as far as I=20
understand, multiple people stay on their own mind, but have different=20
positions. So waiting more and more will just freeze ("fossilize"?)=20
everything in a non-desirable state.


Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 14:18:38 UTC+1, clifford a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Not bitter, merely dismayed and very sad.  40 years ago Logjam seemed to=
=20
> have great promise, but (as I later found) it had already spent its promi=
se=20
> and, despite years fiddling and a couple of almost total restarts, has on=
ly=20
> gotten further and further from its goal (monoparsing possibly aside).  T=
he=20
> only real fix I can conceive is to junk everything you have now (except a=
s=20
> a pile of spare parts, some of which may eventually be of use) and go bac=
k=20
> to square one, with a a higher order intensional logic rather than FOPL a=
nd=20
> a careful, step by step construction by reversable transformations.  Good=
=20
> luck with any phase of that plan.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 3:51:29 AM CST, <suke...@gmail.com=20
> <javascript:>> wrote:=20
>
>
> @stevo: Sorry I don't understand the "make it the same as it was before".=
=20
> From my point of view:
>
>    - Establishing language rules "forever" is not possible. Therefore=20
>    some changes will be necessary. This is what called "evolution".
>    - Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a "feature=
=20
>    branch", a fix, etc.
>    - Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes the core! This=
=20
>    is why it must be done *very carefully*, in order to not break initial=
=20
>    intents of the language.
>
> I hope I mad myself clearer :-)
>
>
>
> Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit :
>
> sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language.=
=20
> How do you change something and then make it the same as it was before? A=
nd=20
> why would you want to?=20
> =20
> stevo
>
> --=20
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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<div dir=3D"ltr">doi la .pycyn.<div><div>Thanks for clarification.</div><di=
v>I can imagine how you feel, because you are actually describing the night=
mare I was guessing.</div><div>I personally still have (a bit of) hope, but=
 if what you say is true, that may require more sacrifices from some people=
. Indeed, as far as I understand, multiple people stay on their own mind, b=
ut have different positions. So waiting more and more will just freeze (&qu=
ot;fossilize&quot;?) everything in a non-desirable state.</div><div><br></d=
iv></div><div><br>Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 14:18:38 UTC+1, clifford a =C3=
=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><=
div></div>
            <div>Not bitter, merely dismayed and very sad. =C2=A040 years a=
go Logjam seemed to have great promise, but (as I later found) it had alrea=
dy spent its promise and, despite years fiddling and a couple of almost tot=
al restarts, has only gotten further and further from its goal (monoparsing=
 possibly aside). =C2=A0The only real fix I can conceive is to junk everyth=
ing you have now (except as a pile of spare parts, some of which may eventu=
ally be of use) and go back to square one, with a a higher order intensiona=
l logic rather than FOPL and a careful, step by step construction by revers=
able transformations. =C2=A0Good luck with any phase of that plan.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div>
           =20
            <div>
                <div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetic=
a,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 3:51:29 AM CST,  &lt;=
<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"j4p2NPNU=
CgAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;ret=
urn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">suke.=
..@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>@stevo: Sorry I do=
n&#39;t understand the &quot;make it the same as it was before&quot;. From =
my point of view:</div><div><ul><li>Establishing language rules &quot;forev=
er&quot; is not possible. Therefore some changes will be necessary. This is=
 what called &quot;evolution&quot;.</li><li>Forking may be interesting. It =
may be an pure experiment, a &quot;feature branch&quot;, a fix, etc.</li><l=
i>Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes the core! This is why=
 it must be done <b>very carefully</b>, in order to not break initial inten=
ts of the language.</li></ul></div>I hope I mad myself clearer :-)<div><br =
clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><div><br clear=3D"none">Le mar=
di 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote sty=
le=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">sykynd=
er: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. How do yo=
u change something and then make it the same as it was before? And why woul=
d you want to?=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">=
=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo</div></d=
iv><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div><div>

<p></p>

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            </div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>

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