Received: from mail-ua0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:62032) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eCM5I-0002Xj-Te for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:51:47 -0800 Received: by mail-ua0-f192.google.com with SMTP id s41sf1100547uab.20 for ; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:51:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=5fLt28JDpX8xHC9iUdsv9vwUijbjt6sg4yUZRcEDyK0=; b=Ueh8hfJJZsSFMte9pqh8kK4jZw6k3HDysj/x0LUvLvHG8YL2ZgcdXGgHJ3s+6dR3Xi wAsZlFu/Tr0D8pD2hEeM2TCzTLXlMAwy6a9rL1uVlR15jmyi/TSUVkxW2/PiyuAwrxT2 G5mf3bBFwpVeeWj8Zr8icFmEderxtQ6kk3wMXVBveIzjZbKCUAbYtADyZ83pyua1mUo5 YQ+6pA8dF1LXRnkajf70FbmSqw8pu7ap7TBa4xpHxDX4l9z0X6ep9/3fquMTL/eWLrg9 oiIiW3M0TsZcy4Z5Ea8/GXwb+rfJHBaFfGKliGllQkF1SgId6fV+pQlFIF4UK2IhRvz1 1g7Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=5fLt28JDpX8xHC9iUdsv9vwUijbjt6sg4yUZRcEDyK0=; b=BUQnK4F/VwOPR0UflN6V/W2CUePX/75+ALT9+XhdEDYhaA7nCMKN2ioxw36o7LzlWc IotwKj577ju9VEunWVGqF18CnVTCYMECPl/KM7629eV5ToaOaYAxKPQjIJCy3h7NXk4t 0lzXukhmBA/iK7hktmwCJ3xvLxXRcODgpC+dhk/iD+PVMg1VxyY9C5TSSSBvy5VdWpAr qwE7pkspZYLDeFf/dmtrbQwbgBtDvUgj7JO1x3qVvcId0qVs98jnzbnHMBr973v9IINn 5kX5R7RfbEXhpmV4uC9h3/FffIxFteyHxwZhFwvW+VdbkWHIJHtmaw6qlzueoe8EGgwW QcDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=5fLt28JDpX8xHC9iUdsv9vwUijbjt6sg4yUZRcEDyK0=; b=tbYjL0uApbvyqyL9ZiWbg9NkjM7KHitU688ZSbyyCJrtXRzrW18K17pTwYixu/HUgw 7GFCyv3NUJFH3R25N/pVBNfeypBdNaWicluG3dLgHCS0/BIqs/HnU/p9vxJJXahByIFO I6x69LMrYtWj5qDoF0bd5YvkmcP7uApvfF9wtxVYPL/EScuB2tb4m1ZzC+oc9Al4mUGA ZA2lyJvAUXUrK1HqV+3liKST9saoyWDbZQBP4pt+51URpEtY0l3sazDTOGgVw76BzMOM Moe2zXFlwcHNk/3kd65PmGFbalA0lyThe0nFMyzOZAzYi7jXaADtDiEFKfPpdFDQUpVt DPWQ== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4pwdUibf6tGGBf6X0KHs//N5xR8lNot22//3ZHXYxlXxihrhpX Yyv8QBPvfssw7dNpJ/ytWPI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SgO8AsR3qASvHu7wpbXC6gbvDv++xZiUmbVLQEQTeDQo1NA5zUs5Eg20VMDwGZwcFaB/VxYA== X-Received: by 10.31.153.21 with SMTP id b21mr127201vke.13.1510131098737; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:51:38 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.159.56.51 with SMTP id p48ls5513688uad.9.gmail; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:51:38 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.153.21 with SMTP id b21mr127197vke.13.1510131097856; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 00:51:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 00:51:37 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <11861c78-b064-497a-a806-b758c6146af8@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com> References: <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <2902921f-abf0-4482-b651-ad78066ec8d5@googlegroups.com> <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1409_717443790.1510131097684" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.1 X-Spam_score_int: -40 X-Spam_bar: ---- ------=_Part_1409_717443790.1510131097684 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1410_762527149.1510131097685" ------=_Part_1410_762527149.1510131097685 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable doi la .guskant. In a few words, I understand from your answers that there are many=20 structure & organizational issues. And I personally think that your efforts= =20 of commenting CLL 1.1 *should* be somewhere in an official deposit, or in a= =20 GitHub pull request, or so. But this requires: 1. That the *ROLES* of reviewing, integrating, validating, voting, etc. are= =20 filled with people that can answer in a reasonable time. 2. That the submission protocol is clear, well defined, official, and=20 friendly. I personally think that GitHub pull requests are fine, but others= =20 means can be good too... as long as it's not a burden like sending raw=20 emails to someone in private. Thus, I guess that one of the first things to improve the situation will be= =20 to define *roles*. I'll get back on that mailing list as soon as I have a= =20 (more or less clean) proposal to submit to you all. Would you like then to= =20 debate? I mean with everybody on that mailing list, uh? Notes : - I was talking about a live HTML version of the "beta" CLL 1.2 (not=20 meetings)! :-) Is there any? - Discussing Lojban in Lojban is surely a *very* good exercise, and that= =20 may make some issues of the language arise (I mean: the more you use it,= =20 the more you test it in real situation). But if "roles" may apply, and i= f=20 people are subject to move around, then maybe it would be a good idea to= =20 get a translation somewhere... Well I'm not absolutely sure on that poin= t=20 but that's what I'm currently thinking about. - Thanks for the language help. Don't be so modest! You actually had the= =20 role of a professor/sensei/guide on that point and I thank you for that.= =20 (My bad about missing separator! ;-) ) =20 ki'e .i la .sykyndyr. Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 17:40:38 UTC+1, guskant a =C3=A9crit : > > > > Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit : >> >> doi la .guskant. >> >> Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big= =20 >> Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not=20 >> continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."! >> My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to= =20 >> enter any board or committee. >> >> > > BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked i= n=20 > English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is= =20 > held on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by=20 > subscribing to the list: > http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members > You can even request the membership of LLG voting member. > > =20 > >> Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it withou= t=20 >> developer tools? >> >> > > HTML version of what? > BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is held o= n=20 > Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes. > > > =20 > >> ** Paralysis ** >> So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want t= o=20 >> rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with othe= r=20 >> tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement"=20 >> guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, th= en=20 >> nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too? >> >> > > Yes. > > =20 > >> It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I= =20 >> feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom.= =20 >> That's not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosion= s"=20 >> and there is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to somethi= ng=20 >> better and organized? >> >> > > I made some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but= =20 > finally I did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them= =20 > into the CLL: > > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logica= l_point_of_view > (written in 2014) > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_causation_sumtcit= a > (written in 2015) > > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/na_go'i > (written in 2016) > > > =20 > >> You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussion= s=20 >> (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enou= gh=20 >> time for the committee to work on proposals? >> >> - If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said=20 >> above)? >> - If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that=20 >> language will evolve? >> =20 >> >> > > Some of the issues were discussed, I think enough, but not brought to=20 > voting. As for the others, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the= =20 > problem is caused by the structure of the committee.=20 > > =20 > >> ** Funds ** >> As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they= =20 >> all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely". >> You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5= =D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if=20 >> "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At fir= st=20 >> I thought this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. Howeve= r,=20 >> I feel now that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working = on=20 >> Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the= =20 >> game. Of course, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagi= ne=20 >> something like periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc= .)=20 >> on one hand, and a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewar= ds=20 >> on the other hand. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed= ...=20 >> But don't you think it is worth debating on this? This of course would b= e=20 >> only some tools to help, and the current organizations would still be th= ere=20 >> and help. >> >> > > At least in the current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards= =20 > will be stuck. Rewards should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeti= ng=20 > is completely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always= =20 > ignored. They were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting=20 > consists of roll call, voting for the board members, and voting for closi= ng=20 > the meeting. > > > =20 > >> ** Organizations ** >> An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there are 3 "major"= =20 >> groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if history may= =20 >> explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of all may be= a=20 >> signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each did; but *= FROM=20 >> AFAR*, it seems that all organizations share some common interests, and= =20 >> may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a single= =20 >> entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary=20 >> companies", sharing a purely administrative section with some functional= =20 >> parts (ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you= =20 >> feel this would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and= =20 >> profitable? >> >> > > I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and=20 > subsidiary companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was= =20 > created by LLG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders'= =20 > Group was created by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were membe= rs=20 > of LLG or BPFK, maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban. > > Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban=20 > Coders' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioni= ng=20 > responsibility of the unofficial contents. > > > =20 > >> I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as= =20 >> people discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in= =20 >> Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in= =20 >> another "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty = of=20 >> materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be=20 >> English, but that's not mandatory, I guess. >> >> You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and= =20 >> spreading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication. >> >> > > I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in= =20 > English continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profi= t=20 > more from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the= =20 > other members of BPFK think about it. > > BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion a= s=20 > AED. > > > =20 > >> ** [side note] ** >> Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills. >> >> - "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to=20 >> convert the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic=20 >> "translation". But putting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspeci= fied=20 >> base is awesome! >> - But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"? >> =20 >> > > I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of speech= =20 > BAI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less than= =20 > something involved in the meaning of the statement. > > If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X}= =20 > or {se me'a X} would be suitable. > > In my expression, it should be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}: > li me'i .abu pi'e pa > > > =20 > >> >> -=20 >> - My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2=20 >> instead of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping= =20 >> cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules! >> - Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me=20 >> it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu = bo manri"=20 >> would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre". >> - Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I=20 >> understand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)"= . >> >> > > By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo= =20 > xauzma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, you are not wrong= .=20 > I only want to let you know something better according to me." > > =20 > >> ki'ecai >> >> > > (You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for=20 > separation here, otherwise you are thanking you.) > > =20 > >> la .sykyndyr. >> > > > mu'o mi'e la guskant > =20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1410_762527149.1510131097685 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi la .guskant.

In a few wo= rds, I understand from your answers that there are many structure & org= anizational issues. And I personally think that your efforts of commenting = CLL 1.1 should be somewhere in an official deposit, or in a GitHub p= ull request, or so. But this requires:
1. That the ROLES o= f reviewing, integrating, validating, voting, etc. are filled with people t= hat can answer in a reasonable time.
2. That the submission proto= col is clear, well defined, official, and friendly. I personally think that= GitHub pull requests are fine, but others means can be good too... as long= as it's not a burden like sending raw emails to someone in private.

Thus, I guess that one of the first things to improv= e the situation will be to define roles. I'll get back on that m= ailing list as soon as I have a (more or less clean) proposal to submit to = you all. Would you like then to debate? I mean with everybody on that maili= ng list, uh?

Notes :
  • I was talki= ng about a live HTML version of the "beta" CLL 1.2 (not meetings)= ! :-) Is there any?
  • Discussing Lojban in Lojban is surely a = very good exercise, and that may make some issues of the language arise= (I mean: the more you use it, the more you test it in real situation). But= if "roles" may apply, and if people are subject to move around, = then maybe it would be a good idea to get a translation somewhere... Well I= 'm not absolutely sure on that point but that's what I'm curren= tly thinking about.
  • Thanks for the language help. Don't be = so modest! You actually had the role of a professor/sensei/guide on that po= int and I thank you for that. (My bad about missing separator! ;-) )
ki'e .i
la .sykyndyr.

<= br>Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 17:40:38 UTC+1, guskant a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


Le mardi = 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
doi la .guskant.
=
Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can= 't read big Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to tim= e, not continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .= teris."!
My current level is one of the reasons why I'm = absolutely not ready to enter any board or committee.

<= /div>


BPFK decided in 2015 t= o talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in English. Some of LLG m= embers are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is held on a private maili= ng list, and anyone can attend the meeting by subscribing to the list:You can even request the membership of LLG voting member.

<= /div>
=C2=A0
Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can= access it without developer tools?

=


HTML version of what?
BPFK and= LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is held on Gith= ub. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes.


=C2=A0
* Paralysis *
So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When= you want to rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overlo= aded with other tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no &quo= t;replacement" guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatev= er the reason, then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?
<= div>


Yes.

=C2=A0
It feels so dramatic to me that you'v= e lost hope. It is exactly what I feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatev= er direction. That's freedom. That's not wrong in itself. But... no= thing more? Ideas create "explosions" and there is no structure a= t all to make all of this collapse to something better and organized?
=



I made= some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but finally I= did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them into the C= LL:

(written in 2014)

= https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_causation= _sumtcita
(written in 2015)





You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5= =D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8= =D1=85) asked if "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for t= ranslations jobs. At first I thought this was not very useful, and surely c= omplex to set up. However, I feel now that the idea behind this (money to e= ncourage people working on Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sou= rces" that would change the game. Of course, this has to be very caref= ully handled! But we may imagine something like periodic small fund raising= (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, and a system putting clear (a= nd small) objectives and rewards on the other hand. I feel like the idea ha= s to be enhanced and discussed... But don't you think it is worth debat= ing on this? This of course would be only some tools to help, and the curre= nt organizations would still be there and help.

<= /blockquote>


At least in the current stru= cture of committees, any ideas about rewards will be stuck. Rewards should = belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting is completely died. My mo= tions for rescuing official contents were always ignored. They were not eve= n discussed. The main part of the meeting consists of roll call, voting for= the board members, and voting for closing the meeting.


=C2=A0
* Organizations *
An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there a= re 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. = Even if history may explain why there are three, the current "freezing= " status of all may be a signal for changing things. I don't know = even 1% of what each did; but FROM AFAR, it seems that all or= ganizations share some common interests, and may perform better together. O= f course, merging everyone into a single entity is surely fictional. But th= ey may organize as "subsidiary companies", sharing a purely admin= istrative section with some functional parts (ex: financial as for the prev= ious topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this would be technically possibl= e? And would this be desirable and profitable?



I guess those three groups wo= rked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiary companies (BPFK, Lojban Cod= ers' Group) in the past. BPFK was created by LLG in order to complete t= echnical documents. Lojban Coders' Group was created by voluntary IT en= gineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK, maybe for creating = various tools for learning Lojban.

Currently, none= of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban Coders' Group is= mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioning responsibility = of the unofficial contents.


=C2=A0<= /div>
I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as p= eople discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in Lojb= an only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in another= "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty = of materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be Engl= ish, but that's not mandatory, I guess.

You kn= own, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and spre= ading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication.






=

If you wanted to say "less than X" using a fu= nction word of BAI, {mau X} or {se me'a X} would be suitable.








la .sy= kyndyr.


mu'o= mi'e la guskant
=C2=A0

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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