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From: Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
Thread-Topic: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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> We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not i=
nternally consistent,

What do you mean? Is there something that documents this?

> is not complete,

I agree and would like to help complete it.

> and especially cannot be completed in a coherent way that is consistent w=
ith CLL.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "complete". I am talking from a user =
perspective and I don't see why completing it would cause issues.

Some things I would like to see for completion include:


- full dictionary fully described in Lojban
- complete reference grammar written in Lojban
- Lojban words to describe Lojban versions, Lojban grammar, place structure=
s, etc.
- full website, available also in pure Lojban, with only official content a=
nd process of content approval
- user-friendly parsers and grammar-checkers easily available on major plat=
forms
- official learning resources tested and refined (and also centralised so t=
here's only one official one of each kind)
- translations of core materials (i.e. those mentioned in above dot points)=
 to major/target languages
- governance structure in place to produce new Lojban versions
- automatic translators (from Lojban into natural languages) available

It's a big wishlist, but I don't see how these things would break the gramm=
ar.

What do you think?


________________________________
From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of And Ro=
sta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:35 AM
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban

On 7 November 2017 at 13:49, Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut=
.edu.au<mailto:timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>> wrote:
"You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will not =
be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have=
 a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.

We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not int=
ernally consistent, is not complete, and especially cannot be completed in =
a coherent way that is consistent with CLL. To the best of my knowledge, no=
body who understands and cares about logic and consistency has ever maintai=
ned that CLL Lojban is viable. However, there are people who hold that fide=
lity to CLL -- and to a standard dialect that emerges spontaneously from CL=
L-faithful usage -- is of paramount importance, outweighing considerations =
of logic and consistency. The community has always been polarized between t=
hese two positions; all that has changed is that the former group has grown=
 at the expense of the latter, as the requisite understanding of the logica=
l issues has spread.

--And.

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt; color=
:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,&quot;EmojiFont&quot;=
,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&q=
uot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot;,EmojiSymbols">
<p></p>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">We have long known that=
 CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent,</sp=
an></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What do you mean? Is there something that documents this?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">is not complete,</span>=
</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree and would like to help complete it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">and especially cannot b=
e completed in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL.</span></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't know exactly what you mean by &quot;complete&quot;. I am talki=
ng from a user perspective and I don't see why completing it would cause is=
sues.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Some things I would like to see for completion include:</div>
<p></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p></p>
<div>- full dictionary fully described in Lojban<br>
- complete reference grammar written in Lojban<br>
- Lojban words to describe Lojban versions, Lojban grammar, place structure=
s, etc.<br>
- full website, available also in pure Lojban, with only official content a=
nd process of content approval<br>
- user-friendly parsers and grammar-checkers easily available on major plat=
forms<br>
- official learning resources tested and refined (and also centralised so t=
here's only one official one of each kind)<br>
- translations of core materials (i.e. those mentioned in above dot points)=
 to major/target languages<br>
- governance structure in place to produce new Lojban versions<br>
- automatic translators (from Lojban into natural languages) available<br>
<br>
It's a big wishlist, but I don't see how these things would break the gramm=
ar.<br>
<br>
What do you think?<br>
</div>
<br>
<p></p>
<br>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> lojban@googlegroups=
.com &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of And Rosta &lt;and.rosta@g=
mail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban@googlegroups.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">On 7 November 2017 at 13:49, Timothy Lawrence =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au" target=3D"_blank=
">timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"x_m_2006538578273824123divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"font-size:10pt; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-se=
rif,&quot;EmojiFont&quot;,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoj=
i&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot=
;,EmojiSymbols">
<div><i>&quot;You can learn the language described here with assurance that=
 it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters.&quot;</i>=
<br>
- Complete Lojban Language <a id=3D"x_m_2006538578273824123LPlnk252822" hre=
f=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/" class=3D"x_m_2006538578273824123OWAA=
utoLink" target=3D"_blank">
http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/<wbr>2/</a> <br>
<br>
I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have=
 a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is no=
t internally consistent, is not complete, and especially cannot be complete=
d in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL. To the best of my knowledg=
e, nobody who understands and cares
 about logic and consistency has ever maintained that CLL Lojban is viable.=
 However, there are people who hold that fidelity to CLL -- and to a standa=
rd dialect that emerges spontaneously from CLL-faithful usage -- is of para=
mount importance, outweighing considerations
 of logic and consistency. The community has always been polarized between =
these two positions; all that has changed is that the former group has grow=
n at the expense of the latter, as the requisite understanding of the logic=
al issues has spread.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--And.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p></p>
-- <br>
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</div>
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<p></p>

-- <br />
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mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
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com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
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