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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s12si329043lje.0.2017.11.08.06.40.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Nov 2017 06:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::233; Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id r196so11281489wmf.2 for ; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 06:40:44 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.80.245.204 with SMTP id x12mr976317edm.172.1510152044246; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 06:40:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.177.170 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 06:40:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 17:40:03 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114a7da4277ddb055d79ac83" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=rKmVRhED; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114a7da4277ddb055d79ac83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 2017-11-08 15:54 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence < timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>: > *> We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not > internally consistent,* > > What do you mean? Is there something that documents this? > > *> is not complete,* > > I agree and would like to help complete it. > > *> and especially cannot be completed in a coherent way that is consistent > with CLL.* > > I don't know exactly what you mean by "complete". I am talking from a user > perspective and I don't see why completing it would cause issues. > > Some things I would like to see for completion include: > > > You probably mean that those need all to be officiaized by LLG? Because otherwise many of those things already exist. - full dictionary fully described in Lojban > - complete reference grammar written in Lojban > - Lojban words to describe Lojban versions, Lojban grammar, place > structures, etc. > - full website, available also in pure Lojban, with only official content > and process of content approval > - user-friendly parsers and grammar-checkers easily available on major > platforms > what is "user friendly"? Please, write requirements, other might try to implement them. - official learning resources tested and refined (and also centralised so > there's only one official one of each kind) > Impossible since different people like different methods. > - translations of core materials (i.e. those mentioned in above dot > points) to major/target languages > have you started translating anything? > - governance structure in place to produce new Lojban versions > - automatic translators (from Lojban into natural languages) available > officialized by LLG? Seriously? Then LLG would have to formalize natlangs too... > It's a big wishlist, but I don't see how these things would break the > grammar. > > What do you think? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of > And Rosta > *Sent:* Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:35 AM > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban > > On 7 November 2017 at 13:49, Timothy Lawrence < > timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote: > > *"You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will > not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."* > - Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/ > > I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to > have a central, singular version to stay unambiguous. > > > We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not > internally consistent, is not complete, and especially cannot be completed > in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL. To the best of my knowledge, > nobody who understands and cares about logic and consistency has ever > maintained that CLL Lojban is viable. However, there are people who hold > that fidelity to CLL -- and to a standard dialect that emerges > spontaneously from CLL-faithful usage -- is of paramount importance, > outweighing considerations of logic and consistency. The community has > always been polarized between these two positions; all that has changed is > that the former group has grown at the expense of the latter, as the > requisite understanding of the logical issues has spread. > > --And. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > topic/lojban/e94H-wdh5gc/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114a7da4277ddb055d79ac83 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-11-08 15:54 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy= .lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>:

> We have long known that= CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent,

What do you mean? Is there something that documents this?

> is not complete,=

I agree and would like to help complete it.

> and especially cannot b= e completed in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "complete".= I am talking from a user perspective and I don't see why completing it= would cause issues.

Some things I would like to see for completion include:



You probably mean t= hat those need all to be officiaized by LLG? Because otherwise many of thos= e things already exist.

=

- full dictionary fully described in Lojban
- complete reference grammar written in Lojban
- Lojban words to describe Lojban versions, Lojban grammar, place structure= s, etc.
- full website, available also in pure Lojban, with only official content a= nd process of content approval
- user-friendly parsers and grammar-checkers easily available on major plat= forms

what is "u= ser friendly"? Please, write requirements, other might try to implemen= t them.

- official learning resources tested and refined (and also centralised so t= here's only one official one of each kind)

Impossible since different people like different = methods.
=C2=A0
- translations of core materials (i.e. those mentioned in above dot points)= to major/target languages

have you started translating anything?
=C2=A0
- governance structure in place to produce new Lojban versions
- automatic translators (from Lojban into natural languages) available
<= /div>

officialized by LLG? Seri= ously? Then LLG would have to formalize natlangs too...


It's a big wishlist, but I don't see how these things would break t= he grammar.

What do you think?


From: = lojban@googleg= roups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 1:35 AM
To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
=C2=A0
On 7 November 2017 at 13:= 49, Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
"You can learn the language described here with assurance that= it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."=
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have= a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.

We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is no= t internally consistent, is not complete, and especially cannot be complete= d in a coherent way that is consistent with CLL. To the best of my knowledg= e, nobody who understands and cares about logic and consistency has ever maintained that CLL Lojban is viable.= However, there are people who hold that fidelity to CLL -- and to a standa= rd dialect that emerges spontaneously from CLL-faithful usage -- is of para= mount importance, outweighing considerations of logic and consistency. The community has always been polarized between = these two positions; all that has changed is that the former group has grow= n at the expense of the latter, as the requisite understanding of the logic= al issues has spread.

--And.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goog= le Groups "lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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