Received: from mail-ua0-f185.google.com ([209.85.217.185]:47663) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eD4xt-0001AU-NT for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:47:07 -0800 Received: by mail-ua0-f185.google.com with SMTP id s28sf151388uag.6 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:47:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=KocTxDyKbXjvGxWHbAUZA5W8oUgkRTJ9WjJRj0JmwQk=; b=P30M3da7NHFAPtjEOj+A9lg8AZos/44380B/veSUidZ9EhNoc8Xk+F1EEWpUHK7yG0 RHjJtTGagjTjXBPjvzEnuHvt4bRUhxT3D5aptCVVhtiGOnHQBnoN2Jm23Xr2PDRRgg3A 2Br7LU1OsCTQWOX5WNZYZsFq3s4fu5MTWJCZmL7/YA6USHuF9BLlZrBa1uzCSeIk00BU Lf0zTHQh0ZVKuossRToabQa8aY7yn76bkJRrleVmBfZlGf/z/4XkqAUPPWChv/fJ4ulj kLh0sclEzNtYylaKWXsSZzUXoVeV7TtJVALEnnjqcspTvWPf7RCl2atd2EsvKRzsFc/j hoSQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=KocTxDyKbXjvGxWHbAUZA5W8oUgkRTJ9WjJRj0JmwQk=; b=C+OjpTDciSjlhI2ENLIYTWp+wFbOxLkzg9+zKVW6TbVoytv9rO6nwfWyodMjCaWs9x j5MmWU2eXSP2fkaIPP3vds9b7tvlDFQzwusYVKFzbGQS0ON3TTGH3W2GGV00Evf1kmWU zPfJuFH3hzYOyMqVQIZoGrmMEv+6+5pJi0udYnfUTzaBF5wc6A//tvefXQYE+cbDcN19 wh6QWouA757K4zXyW8GGEw/BLEv+uCPcyKk2o4wy6q/Lqj/IXbwUAnWorErNouXUNUKs 1zBodzMCqn0O67rSI21+k+XDUqLE9NTGHNLiMOdq4N5sz+yp3RkvK++ferbTfCTFJ2kf Cz9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=KocTxDyKbXjvGxWHbAUZA5W8oUgkRTJ9WjJRj0JmwQk=; b=CZ7dR+KB9HMcv82LKMaC8xSSOnjysA7HcINajPSJhKBUlqamHQvkZhm7oplulgFwtq pc/9vKUMdrO143wl9j7GnkP4HCgJHEVlSRDeS6f2PE4QFQ5dWToqCm5WYvlgNEh5y1iY 9Aq4Fzm/N6eqTzJNEN/ISC6dhYOooyQjEslKUsfEfwTmXBCo3/To1XXtGA8p2yCFGDZx 7iBD4HrihqxS+Jm9bbiKpCHIMT6uP0vm0gsRryBSQO86WAa+ief9WdnVbGOfg4tXBi12 bwjvxhaSeec28FeZALcM7UMlOi+0wScrw89swUhRPJV96EE5hNX3wCCOu33d+vtf2TiY 4p2g== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6xjNKy88hyQL46d8iTcAJ232evalCfw8RoBD3bEbFo5PrZFbJf 1uu7lHPmfy9/gXPcHo/LxQk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMZjCHakcONBjhDDjuFdeYlcWDV7osHKjricVIdwegRu95Gef5b+xHY1Ry0LTZg1IBItxPcBLw== X-Received: by 10.31.48.78 with SMTP id w75mr213011vkw.12.1510303619200; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:46:59 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.176.85.201 with SMTP id w9ls2948972uaa.13.gmail; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:46:58 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.149.85 with SMTP id x82mr642705vkd.3.1510303618488; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:46:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 00:46:58 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <89cbea69-a503-4b15-a0bc-975221ca4fa9@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <38c97c6d-7f22-48da-a55e-c748fbdb830f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1276_986468649.1510303618351" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1276_986468649.1510303618351 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1277_1804296252.1510303618351" ------=_Part_1277_1804296252.1510303618351 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gleki, First of all, my intent was not to offense anyone. But it seems, from your= =20 answer, that you were a bit... annoyed? Irritated?? Indeed, defining Lojban= =20 by "Lojban 1987" is a bit light, IMHO! I understand you'd like to avoid=20 drifting much from the 1987 definition. But this definition is even not=20 clear to me (hence the summary)! Well, I was just trying to sum up things with a twofold goal: make it clear= =20 (to myself, to anyone not "expert"), and establish a kind of base rules to= =20 highlight what may NOT go in evolutions of Lojban (which brings me to the= =20 next point below...). Just to make it clear: are you against evolving Lojban or not? I guess no,= =20 but I'm asking because your short answer may be (mis)interpreted as "I want= =20 Lojban to be forever what it was in 1987". Personally, I feel like=20 engraving a standard into stone is not a good idea. I bet the best that can= =20 happen is evolution in a very "controlled" and "well thought" way; that is= =20 to say not "anyone making forks in any direction", and not "merging ideas= =20 'as they come' into the standard" (such as "macarena" words... What a bad= =20 joke!). About your answer: you're right, most languages are machine parsable. But: 1. I was talking about Lojban only. 2. This doesn't make other languages "non ambiguous" (in grammar). I personally like Lojban because it is so unique: compared to languages I= =20 speak, it removes a whole burden of exceptions, ambiguities, and weird=20 stuff. Well, all of these particularities also make those natural langues= =20 unique, but not in the way it would help learning them. As for cultural neutrality, yes, it is indeed discutable. Maybe this would= =20 be moved to the "desirable" section? But as many pointed out, and despite= =20 the fact gismu used some natural languages as sources, Lojban sounds/looks= =20 like no other. And there is no emphasis on any culture, right? Maybe only= =20 some biases from time to time (to fix?). From my point of view, this is=20 where it differentiates from Esparanto, which is closely related to Latin= =20 languages (I don't talk Esperanto, so correct me if I'm wrong). "Auxiliary language" may come with the previous point, too. Cheers, la .sykynder. Le vendredi 10 novembre 2017 07:44:12 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2017-11-09 23:48 GMT+03:00 >: > >> *YES!* >> >> - Non-ambiguous grammar (~=3D monoparsing, machine parsable) >> =20 >> > English is also machine parsable. See Stanford parser and many more. > =20 > >> >> -=20 >> - Unicity (~=3D forks are experiments or proposals) >> =20 >> so are many constructed languages including programming ones.=20 > >> >> -=20 >> - Cultural neutrality >> =20 >> The list of core verbs (gismu) was borrowed from TLI Loglan and there= =20 > from the list of core concepts in major European language. Cultural=20 > neutrality? > >> >> -=20 >> - Partially based on logic >> >> >> - Rather stable ("rather" has to be refined) >> - Usable (speakable, learnable, writable, readable...) >> - Usage defines the language, as long as these "basics" are untouched= . >> - However the "usage" is rather a blurry situation for now...=20 >> =20 >> I have an alternative definition of what is Lojban: > * Lojban is a language called Lojban and created in 1987. > > Yes! > * named "Lojban" > * created in 1987 > > No! > * named "English" > * doesn't yet have a single word for "to dance Macarena" > > =20 > >> >> *NO!* >> >> - Immutable base grammar, and immutable base vocabulary (cmavo,=20 >> important gismu...) >> - Targeted to be TOTALLY based on logic >> - Ideal (or "perfect") language (la .pycyn. pointed out that issue) >> =20 >> >> *Maybe desirable, but impossible* >> >> - Backward-compatibility of versions (added after what la .timoteios.= =20 >> said) >> - Fully formal and complete grammar (as Gleki and And Rosta said) >> - Keep strictly what original designers wanted (because they could=20 >> not foresee all potential issues) >> =20 >> They also wanted it to be an international auxiliary language, btw. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1277_1804296252.1510303618351 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gleki,

First of all, my inte= nt was not to offense anyone. But it seems, from your answer, that you were= a bit... annoyed? Irritated?? Indeed, defining Lojban by "Lojban 1987= " is a bit light, IMHO! I understand you'd like to avoid drifting = much from the 1987 definition. But this definition is even not clear to me = (hence the summary)!
Well, I was just trying to sum up things wit= h a twofold goal: make it clear (to myself, to anyone not "expert"= ;), and establish a kind of base rules to highlight what may NOT go in evol= utions of Lojban (which brings me to the next point below...).
Just to make it clear: are you against evolving Lojban or not?= I guess no, but I'm asking because your short answer may be (mis)inter= preted as "I want Lojban to be forever what it was in 1987". Pers= onally, I feel like engraving a standard into stone is not a good idea. I b= et the best that can happen is evolution in a very "controlled" a= nd "well thought" way; that is to say not "anyone making for= ks in any direction", and not "merging ideas 'as they come= 9; into the standard" (such as "macarena" words... What a ba= d joke!).

About your answer: you're right, mos= t languages are machine parsable. But:
1. I was talking about Loj= ban only.
2. This doesn't make other languages "non ambi= guous" (in grammar).
I personally like Lojban because it is = so unique: compared to languages I speak, it removes a whole burden of exce= ptions, ambiguities, and weird stuff. Well, all of these particularities al= so make those natural langues unique, but not in the way it would help lear= ning them.

As for cultural neutrality, yes, it is = indeed discutable. Maybe this would be moved to the "desirable" s= ection? But as many pointed out, and despite the fact gismu used some natur= al languages as sources, Lojban sounds/looks like no other. And there is no= emphasis on any culture, right? Maybe only some biases from time to time (= to fix?). From my point of view, this is where it differentiates from Espar= anto, which is closely related to Latin languages (I don't talk Esperan= to, so correct me if I'm wrong).

"Auxilia= ry language" may come with the previous point, too.

Cheers,

la .sykynder.

<= br>Le vendredi 10 novembre 2017 07:44:12 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:


2017-11-09 23:48 GMT+03:00 <suke...@gmail.com>:
YES!
  • Non-ambiguous g= rammar (~=3D monoparsing, machine parsable)

English is also machine parsable. See Stanford p= arser and many more.
=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
  • Unicity (~=3D forks are experiments o= r proposals)
so are many constru= cted languages including programming ones.=C2=A0
  • Cultural neutrality
The list of core verbs (gismu)=C2=A0 w= as borrowed from TLI Loglan and there from the list of core concepts in maj= or European language. Cultural neutrality?
  • Partially based on logic
=
  • Rather stable ("rather" has to be refined)
    • <= li>Usable (speakable, learnable, writable, readable...)
  • Usage d= efines the language, as long as these "basics" are untouched.
    • However the "usage" is rather a blurry situation for now= ...=C2=A0
I have an alternative= definition of what is Lojban:
* Lojban is a language called Lojb= an and created in 1987.

Yes!
* named &qu= ot;Lojban"
* created in 1987

No!
* named "English"
* doesn't yet have a sing= le word for "to dance Macarena"

=C2=A0

= NO!
  • Immutable base grammar, and immutable base= vocabulary (cmavo, important gismu...)
  • Targeted to be TOTALLY = based on logic
  • Ideal (or "perfect") language (la .pyc= yn. pointed out that issue)

Maybe desirable, but impossible
  • Backw= ard-compatibility of versions (added after what la .timoteios. said)
  • Fully formal and complete grammar (as Gleki and And Rosta said)
  • Keep strictly what original designers wanted (because they could not= foresee all potential issues)
T= hey also wanted it to be an international auxiliary language, btw.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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