Received: from mail-vk0-f62.google.com ([209.85.213.62]:54792) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eD7Qx-0000RX-MN for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:17 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f62.google.com with SMTP id t184sf4439960vka.13 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=jtEZhKFrgYwF7KOz8YUjsqP1Fy6ceY/R1jzYLR6qdmw=; b=gxOnIySKlQmdA6FgQFPql30xTtDfvLsjFirhNdC5e1bjzdt8ZBYl6kYvzgL3pvvm6N yGmqN1yVGAP0Luv24F1SOmhPI6FAOfXxOqcmFX4+/AR4FRG8pMK17I/27OWTpWUOXpxp u+i8fZFIQovQJ0naPywqSO6N9cxSv82UorN+Z93biPF/GVCoxMnvbGXNSxObK1a/2yog bDba9fuX8TNvKJgaMr+n0BAjivVQqBQvTvSlu7TvNErrnSpMOhiliWmTG1lFjpHH62ar gIvVUU96okKc0unRzFgv5NgfbwzC6kzIhFDvqeiwLe8RldWwqn0s0iNZyGwODtTAZUe6 ewbg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=jtEZhKFrgYwF7KOz8YUjsqP1Fy6ceY/R1jzYLR6qdmw=; b=hP+E56iOSk7sUmRnlLNSgVT29KaKaSy0gaESRbG4n7+sRSgUfuDzIFVn3iX7y5JDtb jJZIDY6n97pThDEik6ouQrfUAKgglNjU6FpZigMm17T3Jx6aR0Ay1UBeeaUffpoDqzNo 4HjH8oXW7d1OPb3WpvaHbKZlMe/gDM/J7tK9KZ4ov/HIFrfiDu4Cyj6U+2r8qOQE6xOn /Erpxe97/Glrkc3NIp1ZIikNKcDN9XTiG9+eMp0h1GM0UQ5HheyWN/OcH/niCfmZtG/b PUfnsPClYuVSavoIyWqHfbEiNJKQTseEL8RCMzl+Hg/IOj2K0u+r1Lna3iDIDd1yFshW kuuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=jtEZhKFrgYwF7KOz8YUjsqP1Fy6ceY/R1jzYLR6qdmw=; b=eQodXC2osSVg3dWt5JMCrPllDrBf5EoZwWU7lni5fP5yso7EXfPn0vO/Y686z3TYGW cbqzD0jIvksWaPhQI9McMVAubQlTFQce3Yh79dNPZV9FR1eB2Ooq+kpE7vD/2078VaeP 1WBzPmHzS038Baogx2eyiHpO6+ly2vpI483kwheoimNDdtenqWPAX/QMZpf/f8SF3gUY tVNvQW2ZXaAmpeRhQ6XN+XAyWIG+32a4xhCzruY/v1mcvuYpbKk2ZAYYUzyA8xqYaiLc IY1o/RBF4IYddHbNLD9gYFXVVdVUWFNAme6zo9ptBdTAGTPzauPSmMKmxT8MWfKPQAxK ilHA== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX4UWSUS3CYYv8stZyYnflyxppX20CtZpudWJYUgPjvnNgfKJyWF qmcdDxsWnwBOmx63bHvrBBo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Tqvx6nQGzff5B5fIkgPaN1PD2N55eOxf5Jg0MEaEUf99cuJ1bLta5tw4iNfbW3KjoL2LG+0A== X-Received: by 10.31.168.133 with SMTP id r127mr667027vke.8.1510313109142; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:09 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.31.2.21 with SMTP id 21ls1020498vkc.5.gmail; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.50.18 with SMTP id y18mr671088vky.6.1510313108493; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:25:08 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <8fd6c26a-4d9c-4312-a19a-e2a2de08fa0b@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <38c97c6d-7f22-48da-a55e-c748fbdb830f@googlegroups.com> <89cbea69-a503-4b15-a0bc-975221ca4fa9@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1604_289449526.1510313108329" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1604_289449526.1510313108329 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1605_1153020346.1510313108330" ------=_Part_1605_1153020346.1510313108330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gleki Arxokuna: > > > No, I just pointed out incorrect statements about Lojban in your list. > Good. I'll try to set up a fixed list then. Just to make it clear: are you against evolving Lojban or not? >> > > No answer from me. > Oh. Surprising answer, but... as you wish. 1. I was talking about Lojban only. >> > > Defining Lojban via Lojban? Then why not "Lojban is Lojban" definition? > No, no! Maybe my English was not clear. I was just saying I'm trying to=20 define basics without using comparisons to languages. Just "common words",= =20 not lang. comparisons. =20 > 2. This doesn't make other languages "non ambiguous" (in grammar). >> > > How? Please, provide examples how other languages are ambigous. Notice=20 > that some constructed languages (like TLI Loglan) are said to have exactl= y=20 > the same as Lojban in the same formalism. > Sure, here are some examples. I'm not 100% sure they are relevant, but=20 that's just a few ideas. English: - "Sam likes you more that Max." =3D> Does Sam likes you more than Max= =20 likes you? Or does Sam likes you more than (s)he likes Max? - "Prettly little girl's school" (CLL example) =20 French: - "Le pr=C3=A9venu avoue =C3=A0 son avocat qu=E2=80=99il a tu=C3=A9 *sa*= femme" =3D> "sa" is not=20 clear about which one it refers. That may happen in Lojban too using (fo= r=20 instance) a vague meaning like "ra". But French language has no means to= =20 make an unambiguous utterance here, except by adding a second utterance= =20 adding precision. - "Voyant l'=C3=A9l=C3=A9phant prisonnier des braconniers, il prit sa d= =C3=A9fense" =3D>=20 Here the word "d=C3=A9fense" has multiple meanings. - "J'ai perdu mes fils" =3D> Similar. But here a pronunciation differenc= e=20 that makes the sentence unambiguous orally, but ambiguous when written. - "Je suis Max" =3D> May mean "I am Max" or "I'm following Max" I know Lojban allows the speaker to be vague, and allows usage of=20 approximations. And it is also NOT a context-free grammar. But there is a= =20 huge gap between native languages and Lojban on the topic of ambiguity, IMO= . I don't know for other conlangs, actually. Thanks for the info ; I'll have= =20 a look. Please note I'm NOT trying to "define how Lojban is unique compared= =20 to others". =20 > I personally like Lojban because it is so unique >> > > So is English, which is English and not non-English. > =20 > >> : compared to languages I speak, it removes a whole burden of exceptions= ,=20 >> ambiguities, and weird stuff. Well, all of these particularities also ma= ke=20 >> those natural langues unique, but not in the way it would help learning= =20 >> them. >> > > Despite that more people speak Abkhaz than Lojban. > Yes. And...? What's the point? =20 As for cultural neutrality, yes, it is indeed discutable. Maybe this would= =20 >> be moved to the "desirable" section? >> > > So you break descriptivism and move into either politics or some "Future= =20 > Lojban". > Frontier is indeed not that clear, you're right. This is why I wrote "MAYBE= =20 desirable" in the original list. Those points may then be marked as such. As for "Future Lojban", I must say I'm very happy with the current CLL and= =20 have no reason (apart from a few tiny fixes) to move. What I say is that=20 despite of this, being against its evolution will induce more forks, more= =20 dilution, and finally will kill Lojban. I'm no seer/prophet and cannot be= =20 100% sure of this, but many projects I saw ended this way. And thats seems= =20 obvious too, especially knowing how protectionism of Loglan ended. But as many pointed out, and despite the fact gismu used some natural=20 >> languages as sources, Lojban sounds/looks like no other. >> > > Sounds to whom? To me (not a native English speaker) Lojban is the=20 > language most close to English compared to major spoken languages in the= =20 > world. > Yes, this is exactly what I mean: you think it sounds English, while others= =20 think it sounds Russian (I don't see how... but why not), and some others= =20 Portuguese... etc. So, it seems there are many answers. May that come from= =20 the initial gisu creation algorithm? I don't know. Anyway, that was just a side note on my personal feelings... =20 > And there is no emphasis on any culture, right? >> > > Of course, therefore no word for Mozambique culture, a word for Malay=20 > culture is enough. > Really? Oh. Sorry then. I missed that kind of things. Maybe that could be a= =20 point to improve? Maybe only some biases from time to time (to fix?). From my point of view,= =20 >> this is where it differentiates from Esparanto, which is closely related= to=20 >> Latin languages (I don't talk Esperanto, so correct me if I'm wrong). >> > > To the languages the founder spoke (Latin, Polish, German, Yiddish,=20 > Russian and somewhat French, English ...) > Here also I suppose it may be one of the efforts to put on "future Lojban",= =20 to make it more neutral. Thank you for having shared your point of view. la .sykyndyr. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1605_1153020346.1510313108330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Gleki Arxokuna:

<= div>No, I just pointed out incorrect statements about Lojban in your list.<= /div>

Good. I'll try = to set up a fixed list then.


= Just to make it clear: are you against evolving Lojban or not?
<= /blockquote>

No answer from me.

Oh. Surprising answer, but... as you wish.
<= div>

<= div dir=3D"ltr">
1. I was talking about Lojban only.=

Defining Lojban via Lojban= ? Then why not "Lojban is Lojban" definition?

No, no! Maybe my English was not clear. I wa= s just saying I'm trying to define basics without using comparisons to = languages. Just "common words", not lang. comparisons.
=
=C2=A0
2. This doesn't make o= ther languages "non ambiguous" (in grammar).

How? Please, provide examples how other languages a= re ambigous. Notice that some constructed languages (like TLI Loglan) are s= aid to have exactly the same as Lojban in the same formalism.

Sure, here are some examples. I'm = not 100% sure they are relevant, but that's just a few ideas.

English:
  • "Sam likes you more that Ma= x." =3D> Does Sam likes you more than Max likes you? Or does Sam li= kes you more than (s)he likes Max?
  • "Prettly little girl= 9;s school" (CLL example)

Frenc= h:
  • "Le pr=C3=A9venu avoue =C3=A0 son avocat qu=E2=80= =99il a tu=C3=A9 sa femme" =3D> "sa" is not clear = about which one it refers. That may happen in Lojban too using (for instanc= e) a vague meaning like "ra". But French language has no means to= make an unambiguous utterance=C2=A0here, except by adding a second utteran= ce adding precision.
  • "Voyant l'=C3=A9l=C3=A9phant pris= onnier des braconniers, il prit sa d=C3=A9fense" =3D> Here the word= "d=C3=A9fense" has multiple meanings.
  • "J'ai per= du mes fils" =3D> Similar. But here a pronunciation difference that= makes the sentence unambiguous orally, but ambiguous when written.
    • "Je suis Max" =3D> May mean "I am Max" or "I&#= 39;m following Max"

I know Lojban a= llows the speaker to be vague, and allows usage of approximations. And it i= s also NOT a context-free grammar. But there is a huge gap between native l= anguages and Lojban on the topic of ambiguity, IMO.
I don't k= now for other conlangs, actually. Thanks for the info ; I'll have a loo= k. Please note I'm NOT trying to "define=C2=A0how Lojban is unique= compared to others".

=C2=A0
= I personally like Lojban because it is so unique

So is English, which is English and not non-English.
=C2=A0
: compared to languages I speak, it removes a whole burden o= f exceptions, ambiguities, and weird stuff. Well, all of these particularit= ies also make those natural langues unique, but not in the way it would hel= p learning them.

Despite that m= ore people speak Abkhaz than Lojban.
Yes. And...? What's the point?
=C2=A0
<= br>
As for cultural neutrality, yes, it is indeed discutabl= e. Maybe this would be moved to the "desirable" section?

So you break descriptivism and move int= o either politics or some "Future Lojban".

Frontier is indeed not that clear, you're r= ight. This is why I wrote "MAYBE desirable" in the original list.= Those points may then be marked as such.

As for &= quot;Future Lojban", I must say I'm very happy with the current CL= L and have no reason (apart from a few tiny fixes) to move. What I say is t= hat despite of this, being against its evolution will induce more forks, mo= re dilution, and finally will kill Lojban. I'm no seer/prophet and cann= ot be 100% sure of this, but many projects I saw ended this way. And thats = seems obvious too, especially knowing how protectionism of Loglan ended.


But as many pointed out, and d= espite the fact gismu used some natural languages as sources, Lojban sounds= /looks like no other.

Sounds to= whom? To me (not a native English speaker)=C2=A0 Lojban is the language mo= st close to English compared to major spoken languages in the world.
<= /div>

Yes, this is exactly what I mea= n: you think it sounds English, while others think it sounds Russian (I don= 't see how... but why not), and some others Portuguese... etc. So, it s= eems there are many answers. May that come from the initial gisu creation a= lgorithm? I don't know.
Anyway, that was just a side note on = my personal feelings...

=C2=A0
=
And there is no emphasis on any culture, right?

Of course, therefore no word for Mozambique cultu= re, a word for Malay culture is enough.
=
Really? Oh. Sorry then. I missed that kind of things. Maybe = that could be a point to improve?


=
Maybe only some biases from time to time (to fix?). From my point of = view, this is where it differentiates from Esparanto, which is closely rela= ted to Latin languages (I don't talk Esperanto, so correct me if I'= m wrong).

To the languages the = founder spoke (Latin, Polish, German, Yiddish, Russian and somewhat French,= English ...)

Here also I= suppose it may be one of the efforts to put on "future Lojban", = to make it more neutral.


Thank you = for having shared your point of view.

la .sykyndyr= .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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