Received: from mail-ua0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:58825) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eD8K3-0003J0-8U for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:12 -0800 Received: by mail-ua0-f192.google.com with SMTP id c28sf4810144uaa.17 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=h8t8Cy1MbnBPxEwMZiKlLWt7SKzW2Dk7YBXkIv4XaS0=; b=NlyrLWGIr3dIyHWgJKBzlRh4cHha1vKxgV+TmjN7vzL8maONzUUAqy0072zpBpB+5l XEOrvdjvRCaJXQk2uT54XWA5qU4atucuhEYNkaLR3LMEdSGqb+fFyvfE45wFcCfXqJ+J DRv+FQx4N/TiEWSnUykoQZN+Uwna7j3Sy00Mlp8PEUWdzpAKwVAnP+oZV+qtzf/V2/9w bahL2oEJgVcI+c30ANLHEZHS4EikeEVHEcBPCzUuqnySqBD7ucqiJiqZrs1BJk9t38bF n0TAEyG9P4ykEmWoEJbJDGUbX4UdnZUKlXdisMkICWEqfAyFBC1OIEJqXdXA7imlf7B0 PWxg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=h8t8Cy1MbnBPxEwMZiKlLWt7SKzW2Dk7YBXkIv4XaS0=; b=rtetjlR3lh8Stm/b2e4uRf8Q2hRcYmWdDPLv7m7xz9nzsnMBVOqM/tUei/GMitz0tD 0DNpN8eLnYsKy4kHN35ZbkNXhF9ztU2XGxV8fd9DyDdUMWzJQL3dnUYNAkA+nZa7Muk+ NBilEgXmOsUytHIeKpY6poYFPOvF2nK1tT2UFEJ+iSsMu0eYiKzVeZKHf/t2eME43UXs 4UPWxVBqDQP5mtW+9QkK+QgsHxh3866Skj+EoWenBG60GMbK0NBp5zWD//T2/ut64zz+ h2GqGCmws6FE/tbZl4Bt6JzkMjSzieWMb5hzIQjdymOZ2G4gSZ9NpJPPd2p1lJLStr/x KMuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=h8t8Cy1MbnBPxEwMZiKlLWt7SKzW2Dk7YBXkIv4XaS0=; b=rzDTrJpiFiRpp+KH0nYrY+vfzeIEEtdKjW/geja+798v8nwXDmcQRgcdAUDpK6lWt0 XTQUvkrc50oDsVCrfMfD4uJcUgBPi/09XlS/qMXGE+mJeZEMokzjZQbu0MYOuKIzLs5f brkA8JtYJEoXIiFyClw99PjkpUI4pTxgTzTZNx/Uhc8Nemu2o9WOpHTuXAfvsGLeWXE0 bBCjeoSTaEfZtmYjn+GmJbTaBTdIr2/FjK57drvk2eO4uBlNnsmEskbfmoEaXd42lPiA iDc4ueCFyZ5qN+dqWCRuySJNHuYYHvuuHmnY8MEP/ld0dAicSGkWXi/xGpPu7i5n4rsw AckA== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX48gFzeUJKoxqdjmSYJJskkP4cQ+7RG2ThQw58PIrnAs3FTuaqM pGkGW3edGVUPAkf3rom2zKM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RgcsF3/+DQqFOBj0+T/zHPi4zmH2gaVvMzhXg6b59IOAl/aD2I5q5sNo3BhRQsmlcYzbP/ww== X-Received: by 10.31.131.145 with SMTP id f139mr678246vkd.11.1510316524971; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.31.54.73 with SMTP id d70ls5973778vka.15.gmail; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.168.133 with SMTP id r127mr677706vke.8.1510316524174; Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 04:22:03 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <38c97c6d-7f22-48da-a55e-c748fbdb830f@googlegroups.com> <89cbea69-a503-4b15-a0bc-975221ca4fa9@googlegroups.com> <8fd6c26a-4d9c-4312-a19a-e2a2de08fa0b@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1637_703508246.1510316523999" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.6 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.6 X-Spam_score_int: -45 X-Spam_bar: ---- ------=_Part_1637_703508246.1510316523999 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1638_1465721407.1510316523999" ------=_Part_1638_1465721407.1510316523999 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > {.i mi klama} = "I come, I came, I will have come" ? Ambiguous. > Ambiguous? I'd rather say "vague". I mean, for me, is is grammatically perfectly clear, despite no tense is provided. Right. Or referring by name. When you need precision you add words, similar > in Lojban. > Yup. I just told that there is no grammatical mean in French, whereas there are in Lojban. Of course, means may be cumbersome... and that's another point! Lojban is not by definition free of polysemy. > Sure! But as a conlang with such base rules, polysemy has not the same "level", IMO. That's where I agree in regard to French. Lojban and Mandarin Chinese have > unambiguous self-segregation morphology provided that communication channel > has low noise. > Really? I thought is was not that always the case. Anyway, I often hear, those says, people having much trouble with pronunciation (in French); this generally strongly affects the meaning. There are many famous pairs / paraphony ("et" / "est", "pomme" / "paume", etc.). This makes me think that tiny differences generate more issues. > I know Lojban allows the speaker to be vague, and allows usage of >> approximations. And it is also NOT a context-free grammar. But there is a >> huge gap between native languages and Lojban on the topic of ambiguity, IMO. >> > > I hope my sarcastic but serious (ge'exo'o ge'ezo'onai) remarks proved that > wrong. > Well, of course, no one can say "Lojban is perfect, everything else is crap". Lojban has issues. That's obvious. But what I mean is that Lojban tends to avoid some common issues in languages. The difference is not "day and night" of course. But I'm still not convinced that the gap is small, or that Lojban is "just another language". However I must say all your remarks are interesting. Thanks again. > I don't know for other conlangs, actually. Thanks for the info ; I'll have >> a look. Please note I'm NOT trying to "define how Lojban is unique compared >> to others". >> > > > It'd be imo more productive to simply remove from the analysis anything > that looks like a conlang (proglangs, Esperanto, gua\spi) > Alright! Despite that more people speak Abkhaz than Lojban. >>> >> >> Yes. And...? What's the point? >> > > Even if at some theoretical level Lojban is easier to learn no one learns > it. It's like one of cryptic proglangs that geeks adore, discuss its > pragmatic usefullness but almost no one uses. > Are you saying it's not worth learning Lojban? If so, your position is then unclear to me. Or are you saying that despite efforts people still see it as a doomed & geek language (which is a bit what I said about "low notoriety")? la .sykyndyr. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1638_1465721407.1510316523999 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

{.i mi klama} =3D &= quot;I come, I came, I will have come" ? Ambiguous.
<= /div>

Ambiguous? I'd rather say "v= ague". I mean, for me, is is grammatically perfectly clear, despite no= tense is provided.


R= ight. Or referring by name. When you need precision you add words, similar = in Lojban.

Yup. I just told that there is no grammatical mean in French, whereas ther= e are in Lojban. Of course, means may be cumbersome... and that's anoth= er point!


Lojban is n= ot by definition free of polysemy.

Sure! But as a conlang with such base rules, polysemy = has not the same "level", IMO.


That's where I agree in regard to French. Lojban= =C2=A0and Mandarin Chinese have unambiguous self-segregation morphology pro= vided that communication channel has low noise.

Really? I thought is was not that always the case. A= nyway, I often hear, those says, people having much trouble with pronunciat= ion (in French); this generally strongly affects the meaning. There are man= y famous pairs / paraphony ("et" / "est", "pomme&q= uot; / "paume", etc.). This makes me think that tiny differences = generate more issues.

=C2=A0
I kno= w Lojban allows the speaker to be vague, and allows usage of approximations= . And it is also NOT a context-free grammar. But there is a huge gap betwee= n native languages and Lojban on the topic of ambiguity, IMO.

I hope my sarcastic but serious (ge'exo&= #39;o ge'ezo'onai) remarks proved that wrong.

Well, of course, no one can say "Lojban i= s perfect, everything else is crap". Lojban has issues. That's obv= ious. But what I mean is that Lojban tends to avoid some common issues in l= anguages. The difference is not "day and night" of course. But I&= #39;m still not convinced that the gap is small, or that Lojban is "ju= st another language".

However I must say all = your remarks are interesting. Thanks again.

=C2=A0=
I don't know for other conlangs, actually. = Thanks for the info ; I'll have a look. Please note I'm NOT trying = to "define=C2=A0how Lojban is unique compared to others".


It'd be imo more pr= oductive to simply remove from the analysis anything that looks like a conl= ang (proglangs, Esperanto, gua\spi)

=
Alright!


Despite that more people speak Abkhaz than Lojban.

Yes. And...? What's th= e point?

Even if at some theore= tical level Lojban is easier to learn no one learns it. It's like one o= f cryptic proglangs that geeks adore, discuss its pragmatic usefullness but= almost no one uses.

Are = you saying it's not worth learning Lojban? If so, your position is then= unclear to me. Or are you saying that despite efforts people still see it = as a doomed & geek language (which is a bit what I said about "low= notoriety")?


la .sykyndyr.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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