Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:47:30 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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coi la sykyndyr

I agree to the most part of your summary, though I have two points to=20
suggest the precision.


Le jeudi 9 novembre 2017 20:48:20 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> ** Lojban basics **
> What defines Lojban? (Or "What should never change in Lojban?"). So, if I=
=20
> try to sum up again from various sources, the answers are below (please=
=20
> tell if you disagree):
>
> *YES!*
>
>    - Non-ambiguous grammar (~=3D monoparsing, machine parsable)
>    - Unicity (~=3D forks are experiments or proposals)
>    - Cultural neutrality
>    - Partially based on logic
>    - Rather stable ("rather" has to be refined)
>    - Usable (speakable, learnable, writable, readable...)
>    - Usage defines the language, as long as these "basics" are untouched.
>       - However the "usage" is rather a blurry situation for now...=20
>   =20
>
 1. "Partially based on logic".
The phrase "based on logic" is not suitable qualification for a word that=
=20
signifies a language.

A language is a set of symbols, while logic is a theory of reasoning=20
according to which the meaning of a string of symbols is derived from the=
=20
meaning of another string of symbols. In any kind of logic, the theory is=
=20
defined so that a false cannot be derived from a truth.

Symbols are not meanings. A set of symbols cannot be based on a theory of=
=20
meanings signified by symbols.

As a precise description of Lojban, the following sentence is suitable:

A part of the grammar of Lojban is based on the grammar of a language used=
=20
in the predicate logic.

# By the way, the CLL defines also semantics of Lojban, among which there=
=20
are something related to logic. However, the semantics written in the CLL=
=20
contains very important logical defects, of which I raised the ideas of=20
corrections in the BPFK meeting but failed to make them official.=20


2. "Cultural neutrality"
The CLL defends it by creation of gismu based on the six languages of the=
=20
majority on the Earth. However, as Gleki pointed out, the selection of=20
gismu set is based on European culture. It lacks some important words for=
=20
people in other cultures, for example {bambu} (listed on the jbovlaste as=
=20
an experimental gismu) is not in the official gismu list, though it is a=20
very important word for south east asian people.

However, from my point of view, the cultural neutrality of a language does=
=20
not depend on the content words like gismu, but on the grammar.

Important content words should vary according to the speaker's lifestyle,=
=20
the culture of each speaker. A cultural neutrality on gismu set is=20
impossible. On the other hand, the grammar of Lojban is based on the=20
grammar of language used in the predicate logic, which is very simplified=
=20
and specialized in order to treat statements easily in logical reasoning.=
=20
Such a grammar is indeed the cultural neutrality.

That's it, and the ideas above are based on my creation of a series of=20
short films to be released soon. You all are lucky to know the ideas before=
=20
release.

mu'o mi'e la guskant

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>coi la sykyndyr</div><div><br></div><div>I agree to t=
he most part of your summary, though I have two points to suggest the preci=
sion.</div><div><br></div><br>Le jeudi 9 novembre 2017 20:48:20 UTC, Benoit=
 Neil a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div><b><font size=3D"4">* Lojban basics *</font=
></b></div><div>What defines Lojban? (Or &quot;What should never change in =
Lojban?&quot;). So, if I try to sum up again from various sources, the answ=
ers are below (please tell if you disagree):</div><div><br></div><div><b><u=
>YES!</u></b></div><div><ul><li>Non-ambiguous grammar (~=3D monoparsing, ma=
chine parsable)<br></li><li>Unicity (~=3D forks are experiments or proposal=
s)<br></li><li>Cultural neutrality<br></li><li>Partially based on logic<br>=
</li><li>Rather stable (&quot;rather&quot; has to be refined)<br></li><li>U=
sable (speakable, learnable, writable, readable...)<br></li><li>Usage defin=
es the language, as long as these &quot;basics&quot; are untouched.</li><ul=
><li>However the &quot;usage&quot; is rather a blurry situation for now...=
=C2=A0</li></ul></ul></div><div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A01. &quot;Partially based on logic&quot;.</div><div>The phrase &quot=
;based on logic&quot; is not suitable qualification for a word that signifi=
es a language.</div><div><br></div><div>A language is a set of symbols, whi=
le logic is a theory of reasoning according to which the meaning of a strin=
g of symbols is derived from the meaning of another string of symbols. In a=
ny kind of logic, the theory is defined so that a false cannot be derived f=
rom a truth.</div><div><br></div><div>Symbols are not meanings. A set of sy=
mbols cannot be based on a theory of meanings signified by symbols.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>As a precise description of Lojban, the following sentenc=
e is suitable:</div><div><br></div><div>A part of the grammar of Lojban is =
based on the grammar of a language used in the predicate logic.</div><div><=
br></div><div># By the way, the CLL defines also semantics of Lojban, among=
 which there are something related to logic. However, the semantics written=
 in the CLL contains very important logical defects, of which I raised the =
ideas of corrections in the BPFK meeting but failed to make them official.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>2. &quot;Cultural neutrality=
&quot;</div><div>The CLL defends it by creation of gismu based on the six l=
anguages of the majority on the Earth. However, as Gleki pointed out, the s=
election of gismu set is based on European culture. It lacks some important=
 words for people in other cultures, for example {bambu} (listed on the jbo=
vlaste as an experimental gismu) is not in the official gismu list, though =
it is a very important word for south east asian people.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>However, from my point of view, the cultural neutrality of a languag=
e does not depend on the content words like gismu, but on the grammar.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Important content words should vary according to the s=
peaker&#39;s lifestyle, the culture of each speaker. A cultural neutrality =
on gismu set is impossible. On the other hand, the grammar of Lojban is bas=
ed on the grammar of language used in the predicate logic, which is very si=
mplified and specialized in order to treat statements easily in logical rea=
soning. Such a grammar is indeed the cultural neutrality.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>That&#39;s it, and the ideas above are based on my creation of a se=
ries of short films to be released soon. You all are lucky to know the idea=
s before release.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la guskant</di=
v><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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