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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:54:16 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+hugk37NBHuJA_oudm53sWTVRggGr186+4e2S=s0_p2yw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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2017-11-10 15:22 GMT+03:00 <sukender1@gmail.com>:

>
>> {.i mi klama} = "I come, I came, I will have come" ? Ambiguous.
>>
>
> Ambiguous? I'd rather say "vague". I mean, for me, is is grammatically
> perfectly clear, despite no tense is provided.
>

Similar to your example
"Sam likes you more that Max."
The link between Max and another noun is underspecified. Context makes
clear what you mean.


>
> Right. Or referring by name. When you need precision you add words,
>> similar in Lojban.
>>
>
> Yup. I just told that there is no grammatical mean in French, whereas
> there are in Lojban. Of course, means may be cumbersome... and that's
> another point!
>
>
> Lojban is not by definition free of polysemy.
>>
>
> Sure! But as a conlang with such base rules, polysemy has not the same
> "level", IMO.
>

I have no clue what you mean by "level"


>
>
> That's where I agree in regard to French. Lojban and Mandarin Chinese have
>> unambiguous self-segregation morphology provided that communication channel
>> has low noise.
>>
>
> Really? I thought is was not that always the case. Anyway, I often hear,
> those says, people having much trouble with pronunciation (in French); this
> generally strongly affects the meaning. There are many famous pairs /
> paraphony ("et" / "est", "pomme" / "paume", etc.). This makes me think that
> tiny differences generate more issues.
>

In French they could. As I once again say I agree in regards to French.
Other natural languages are similar to Lojban in self-segregating
morphology.


>
>
>
>> I know Lojban allows the speaker to be vague, and allows usage of
>>> approximations. And it is also NOT a context-free grammar. But there is a
>>> huge gap between native languages and Lojban on the topic of ambiguity, IMO.
>>>
>>
>> I hope my sarcastic but serious (ge'exo'o ge'ezo'onai) remarks proved
>> that wrong.
>>
>
> Well, of course, no one can say "Lojban is perfect, everything else is
> crap". Lojban has issues. That's obvious. But what I mean is that Lojban
> tends to avoid some common issues in languages. The difference is not "day
> and night" of course. But I'm still not convinced that the gap is small, or
> that Lojban is "just another language".
>
> However I must say all your remarks are interesting. Thanks again.
>
>
>
>> I don't know for other conlangs, actually. Thanks for the info ; I'll
>>> have a look. Please note I'm NOT trying to "define how Lojban is unique
>>> compared to others".
>>>
>>
>>
>> It'd be imo more productive to simply remove from the analysis anything
>> that looks like a conlang (proglangs, Esperanto, gua\spi)
>>
>
> Alright!
>
>
> Despite that more people speak Abkhaz than Lojban.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. And...? What's the point?
>>>
>>
>> Even if at some theoretical level Lojban is easier to learn no one learns
>> it. It's like one of cryptic proglangs that geeks adore, discuss its
>> pragmatic usefullness but almost no one uses.
>>
>
> Are you saying it's not worth learning Lojban?
>

I am not.


> If so, your position is then unclear to me. Or are you saying that despite
> efforts people still see it as a doomed
>

I am not.


> & geek language
>

I am.


> (which is a bit what I said about "low notoriety")?
>
>
> la .sykyndyr.
>
> --
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--94eb2c0c385812e48a055db13117
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2017-11-10 15:22 GMT+03:00  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suk=
ender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>{.i mi klama} =
=3D &quot;I come, I came, I will have come&quot; ? Ambiguous.</div></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Ambiguous? I&#39;d rather=
 say &quot;vague&quot;. I mean, for me, is is grammatically perfectly clear=
, despite no tense is provided.</div></div></blockquote><div><div><br></div=
><div>Similar to your example=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>&quot;Sam likes you mor=
e that Max.&quot;</div><div>The link between Max and another noun is unders=
pecified. Context makes clear what you mean.</div></div><div><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=
=3D"gmail-"><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Right. Or=
 referring by name. When you need precision you add words, similar in Lojba=
n.<br></div><div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>=
Yup. I just told that there is no grammatical mean in French, whereas there=
 are in Lojban. Of course, means may be cumbersome... and that&#39;s anothe=
r point!</div><span class=3D"gmail-"><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div>Lojban is not by definition free of polysemy.</div><div></d=
iv></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Sure! But as a conla=
ng with such base rules, polysemy has not the same &quot;level&quot;, IMO.<=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have no clue what you mean by=
 &quot;level&quot;</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"gmail-"><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>That&#39;s where I agree in regard to Fr=
ench. Lojban=C2=A0and Mandarin Chinese have unambiguous self-segregation mo=
rphology provided that communication channel has low noise.</div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Really? I thought is was not that=
 always the case. Anyway, I often hear, those says, people having much trou=
ble with pronunciation (in French); this generally strongly affects the mea=
ning. There are many famous pairs / paraphony (&quot;et&quot; / &quot;est&q=
uot;, &quot;pomme&quot; / &quot;paume&quot;, etc.). This makes me think tha=
t tiny differences generate more issues.</div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>In French they could. As I once again say I agree in regards to F=
rench. Other natural languages are similar to Lojban in self-segregating mo=
rphology.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"gmail-"><div><br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I know Lojban allows the speaker to be v=
ague, and allows usage of approximations. And it is also NOT a context-free=
 grammar. But there is a huge gap between native languages and Lojban on th=
e topic of ambiguity, IMO.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I ho=
pe my sarcastic but serious (ge&#39;exo&#39;o ge&#39;ezo&#39;onai) remarks =
proved that wrong.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div=
>Well, of course, no one can say &quot;Lojban is perfect, everything else i=
s crap&quot;. Lojban has issues. That&#39;s obvious. But what I mean is tha=
t Lojban tends to avoid some common issues in languages. The difference is =
not &quot;day and night&quot; of course. But I&#39;m still not convinced th=
at the gap is small, or that Lojban is &quot;just another language&quot;.</=
div><div><br></div><div>However I must say all your remarks are interesting=
. Thanks again.</div><span class=3D"gmail-"><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I don&#39;t know for other conlangs, actually. =
Thanks for the info ; I&#39;ll have a look. Please note I&#39;m NOT trying =
to &quot;define=C2=A0how Lojban is unique compared to others&quot;.</div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;d be imo more pr=
oductive to simply remove from the analysis anything that looks like a conl=
ang (proglangs, Esperanto, gua\spi)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></span><div>Alright!</div><span class=3D"gmail-"><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Despite that more people=
 speak Abkhaz than Lojban.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></s=
pan><div>Yes. And...? What&#39;s the point?</div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Even if at some theoretical level Lojban is easier to learn no=
 one learns it. It&#39;s like one of cryptic proglangs that geeks adore, di=
scuss its pragmatic usefullness but almost no one uses.</div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Are you saying it&#39;s not worth lea=
rning Lojban?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am not.</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div> If so, your position is then unclear to me. Or are you sayin=
g that despite efforts people still see it as a doomed</div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>I am not.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div> &amp; geek language=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div> (whi=
ch is a bit what I said about &quot;low notoriety&quot;)?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><div class=3D"gmail-h5">

<p></p>

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<p></p>

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