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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 19:12:51 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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 Well, let=E2=80=99s see.1. =C2=A0No one is suggesting a lexed version of F=
OPL or HOIL as a language, although, as one who spoke one fairly regularly =
for thirty-some years, I can say that it is not too bad (certainly not wors=
e than Lojban in the areas both cover). =C2=A0The biggest problem is repeti=
tion, since you have to say everything the same way every time. =C2=A0So, t=
he first steps in deriving a language from =C2=A0formulae, unequivocal repe=
tition replacement: fusion and prowords, mainly. After that, the rest is ic=
ing. =C2=A0Oh, and adding a bunch of conversational expressions. =C2=A0=C2=
=A02. =C2=A0The theory goes that every sentence in any language derives by =
a series of transformations from a semantic representation, viewed as a for=
mula in an adequate HOIL. =C2=A0A correct parse, then, is one that gets bac=
k to that original formula (up to the relevant logical equivalence). Practi=
cally, this seems to mean that the derivations involved are all biunique. =
=C2=A0Of course, none of this discussion applies to Lojban, since it does n=
ot define its sentences against a semantic base (though, of course, it has =
one).3. =C2=A0The descriptions of languages used in the discussion of SWH a=
re those of surface phenomena as described in the first half of the 20th ce=
ntury and bear very little relation to what a linguist might do today (one =
would hope). In particular, all sentences of all languages have the same so=
rt of underlying representation and differ only in the selection of transfo=
rmation used to get to them, so the SAE etc. classifications, have no profo=
und reality. =C2=A0Nor do they reflect different ways of viewing the world,=
 as revealed in non-linguistic tests. =C2=A04. =C2=A0As noted, Nyaya Sanskr=
it is as formal a language as FOPL, just written in Sanskrit words not non-=
linguistic symbols. Spoken FOPL is in English (etc.) words but not the less=
 formal for that. Nyaya could be symboized in a HOIL fairly easily, I think=
 (I stopped that dissertation before I got that far, alas), so could be enf=
olded in Lojban, if Lojban were actually based on HOIL (or even a suitably =
extended version of FOPL).=C2=A05. =C2=A0I confess that, aside from constan=
tly fiddling with minutiae, I have no idea what reformers have as a vision =
for Lojban 2.0 or whatever. =C2=A0Does it still aim at the old goals, has i=
t dropped some, has it added others, is it totally different? Of course, ov=
er the years even the goals of the CLL fundamentalists have become increasi=
ngly less clear as even they diddle with this cmavo or that, even this. sel=
ma=E2=80=99o or that. =C2=A0All ultimately to no particularly interesting p=
oint, so far as I can see from what is floating around now. =C2=A0
    On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 6:15:37 AM CST, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.or=
g> wrote: =20
=20
 * Sunday, 2017-11-12 at 12:55 +0100 - Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>:

> Incidentally, there is a work-in-progress piece of software that aim to
> translate back and forth between Lojban and a custom logical notation ; t=
he
> project is called Tersmu: https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/

I should probably clarify that work on it isn't really in progress any
more, at least not by its original author (me). I'll try to maintain
it, but I can't imagine getting back to working on it seriously any
year soon. So I encourage anyone interested in developing the project
further to fork it.

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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
            <div>Well, let=E2=80=99s see.</div><div>1. &nbsp;No one is sugg=
esting a lexed version of FOPL or HOIL as a language, although, as one who =
spoke one fairly regularly for thirty-some years, I can say that it is not =
too bad (certainly not worse than Lojban in the areas both cover). &nbsp;Th=
e biggest problem is repetition, since you have to say everything the same =
way every time. &nbsp;So, the first steps in deriving a language from &nbsp=
;formulae, unequivocal repetition replacement: fusion and prowords, mainly.=
 After that, the rest is icing. &nbsp;Oh, and adding a bunch of conversatio=
nal expressions. &nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>2. &nbsp;The theory goes that every=
 sentence in any language derives by a series of transformations from a sem=
antic representation, viewed as a formula in an adequate HOIL. &nbsp;A corr=
ect parse, then, is one that gets back to that original formula (up to the =
relevant logical equivalence). Practically, this seems to mean that the der=
ivations involved are all biunique. &nbsp;Of course, none of this discussio=
n applies to Lojban, since it does not define its sentences against a seman=
tic base (though, of course, it has one).</div><div>3. &nbsp;The descriptio=
ns of languages used in the discussion of SWH are those of surface phenomen=
a as described in the first half of the 20th century and bear very little r=
elation to what a linguist might do today (one would hope). In particular, =
all sentences of all languages have the same sort of underlying representat=
ion and differ only in the selection of transformation used to get to them,=
 so the SAE etc. classifications, have no profound reality. &nbsp;Nor do th=
ey reflect different ways of viewing the world, as revealed in non-linguist=
ic tests. &nbsp;</div><div>4. &nbsp;As noted, Nyaya Sanskrit is as formal a=
 language as FOPL, just written in Sanskrit words not non-linguistic symbol=
s. Spoken FOPL is in English (etc.) words but not the less formal for that.=
 Nyaya could be symboized in a HOIL fairly easily, I think (I stopped that =
dissertation before I got that far, alas), so could be enfolded in Lojban, =
if Lojban were actually based on HOIL (or even a suitably extended version =
of FOPL).&nbsp;</div><div>5. &nbsp;I confess that, aside from constantly fi=
ddling with minutiae, I have no idea what reformers have as a vision for Lo=
jban 2.0 or whatever. &nbsp;Does it still aim at the old goals, has it drop=
ped some, has it added others, is it totally different? Of course, over the=
 years even the goals of the CLL fundamentalists have become increasingly l=
ess clear as even they diddle with this cmavo or that, even this. selma=E2=
=80=99o or that. &nbsp;All ultimately to no particularly interesting point,=
 so far as I can see from what is floating around now. &nbsp;</div><div><br=
></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0779707159" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Sunday, November 12, 2017, 6:15:37 AM CST, Marti=
n Bays &lt;mbays@sdf.org&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div>* Sunday, 2017-11-12 at 12:55 +0100 - Ilmen &lt;<a=
 shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com" href=3D"mailto:i=
lmen.pokebip@gmail.com">ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br clear=3D"none">=
<br clear=3D"none">&gt; Incidentally, there is a work-in-progress piece of =
software that aim to<br clear=3D"none">&gt; translate back and forth betwee=
n Lojban and a custom logical notation ; the<br clear=3D"none">&gt; project=
 is called Tersmu: <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://gitorious.org/tersmu/t=
ersmu/" target=3D"_blank">https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/</a><br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I should probably clarify that work on it isn'=
t really in progress any<br clear=3D"none">more, at least not by its origin=
al author (me). I'll try to maintain<br clear=3D"none">it, but I can't imag=
ine getting back to working on it seriously any<br clear=3D"none">year soon=
. So I encourage anyone interested in developing the project<br clear=3D"no=
ne">further to fork it.<div class=3D"yqt4582204759" id=3D"yqtfd66959"><br c=
lear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-- <br clear=3D"none">You received this me=
ssage because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.<br cl=
ear=3D"none">To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from =
it, send an email to lojban+<a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe=
@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.">unsubscri=
be@googlegroups.com.</a><br clear=3D"none">To post to this group, send emai=
l to <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com." href=3D"=
mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com.">lojban@googlegroups.com.</a><br clear=3D"n=
one">Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.<br clear=
=3D"none">For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.<br cl=
ear=3D"none"></div></div>
                </div>
            </div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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