Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22e;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CACf3dPncGvkjQjbxL4MV_omG0R-e66V1CDcZFrt2hVU8iYWf0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com>
 <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <SY3PR01MB0873C992D556B090F308980EEB510@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACf3dPnmCuGXQtxQOOrP9T9pDthhthx3rnoCdaFoai+fM8M6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <SY3PR01MB08733806D926A36CF1726EB0EB560@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACf3dPncGvkjQjbxL4MV_omG0R-e66V1CDcZFrt2hVU8iYWf0w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:58:35 +0100
Message-ID: <CAAQ0imMh1TcjnD+0fNDq9vJY66NfQw-OyFgQL=+hjGZm9gjQzg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045cf798dc3627055ddf5743"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.5
X-Spam_score_int: -24
X-Spam_bar: --

--f403045cf798dc3627055ddf5743
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Adopting the connective system proposed by selpahi, imho, is one of the
first proposal to be evaluated.  I really believe that CLL system is far
too unpractical for common usage.
 That would be a clear move toward a "modern" version of Lojban.


On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 4:44 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 8 Nov 2017 12:54, "Timothy Lawrence" <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.
> edu.au> wrote:
>
> *> We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not
> internally consistent,*
>
> What do you mean?
>
>
> CLL does not give complete and consistent rules for unambiguously mapping
> Lojban sentences to logical forms. For folk for whom Lojban's purportedly
> being a logical language is its paramount property, that is a big deal.
>
>
> Is there something that documents this?
>
>
> I don't know. It's certainly there in the mail archives and antique wiki
> pages. Selpahi read through 25 years of email and wiki discussion in order
> to understand the issues.
>
> My sense is that the folk who care about logic are more interested simply
> in mending the language rather than in creating documents that focus on
> explaining in one place all the problems with CLL Lojban, but there may
> well be newer expository stuff I don't know about.
>
> A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into those
> who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favour CLL
> Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those who want
> to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical issues
> and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at all then
> you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in order to
> make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positions
> weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thoroughly
> against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn and
> use Lojban in future.
>
>
>
> *> is not complete,*
>
> I agree and would like to help complete it.
>
>
> This is the job of the BPFK, but not much progres is visible from that
> group.
>
> In my view, xorxes and selpahi should simply define bodies of candidate
> new rules and changes and the rest of the BPFK or community or LLG should
> vote on them by some suitably intelligent voting method. You could make it
> more democratic by allowing anyone to submit proposed changes, but I would
> be inclined to vote for exactly whatever xorxes and selpahi propose. Those
> innovations elected would be deemed to supersede CLL where there is
> incompatibility. And then textbook writers can write it up. Admittedly,
> that already happened for xorlo, but nobody has yet textbooked it.
>
> --And.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--f403045cf798dc3627055ddf5743
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Adopting the connective system proposed by selpahi, i=
mho, is one of the first proposal to be evaluated.=C2=A0 I really believe t=
hat CLL system is far too unpractical for common usage.<br></div>=C2=A0That=
 would be a clear move toward a &quot;modern&quot; version of Lojban.<br><b=
r><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mo=
n, Nov 13, 2017 at 4:44 PM, And Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><span class=3D=
""><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8 =
Nov 2017 12:54, &quot;Timothy Lawrence&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:timothy.=
lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au" target=3D"_blank">timothy.lawrence@connect.qut=
.<wbr>edu.au</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_=
-5859701327270334728m_-3440443217654592608quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_-5859701327270334728m_-3440443217654592608m_-32069329086695135=
11divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,&quot;EmojiFont&quot;,&quot;Appl=
e Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe U=
I Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot;,EmojiSymbols"><div class=3D"m_-585=
9701327270334728m_-3440443217654592608quoted-text">
<p></p>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">We have long known that=
 CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent,</sp=
an></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div>What do you mean? </div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"auto">CLL does not give c=
omplete and consistent rules for unambiguously mapping Lojban sentences to =
logical forms. For folk for whom Lojban&#39;s purportedly being a logical l=
anguage is its paramount property, that is a big deal.=C2=A0</div><span cla=
ss=3D""><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"m_-5859701327270334728m_-3440443217654592608quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v id=3D"m_-5859701327270334728m_-3440443217654592608m_-3206932908669513511d=
ivtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,&quot;EmojiFont&quot;,&quot;Apple C=
olor Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI S=
ymbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot;,EmojiSymbols"><div>Is there something=
 that documents this?</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"auto">I don&#39;t know. It&#39;s =
certainly there in the mail archives and antique wiki pages. Selpahi read t=
hrough 25 years of email and wiki discussion in order to understand the iss=
ues.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">My sense is t=
hat the folk who care about logic are more interested simply in mending the=
 language rather than in creating documents that focus on explaining in one=
 place all the problems with CLL Lojban, but there may well be newer exposi=
tory stuff I don&#39;t know about.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided =
into those who care about logic and those who don&#39;t (and can therefore =
favour CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into tho=
se who want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logic=
al issues and those who think that if you&#39;re going to make any changes =
at all then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws i=
n order to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two p=
ositions weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL th=
oroughly against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might lea=
rn and use Lojban in future.</div><span class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"m_-5859701327270334728m_-=
3440443217654592608quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div id=3D"m_-5859701327270334728m_=
-3440443217654592608m_-3206932908669513511divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr"=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,san=
s-serif,&quot;EmojiFont&quot;,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI =
Emoji&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&=
quot;,EmojiSymbols">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">is not complete,</span>=
</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree and would like to help complete it.</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"auto">=
This is the job of the BPFK, but not much progres is visible from that grou=
p.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In my view, xorxes an=
d selpahi should simply define bodies of candidate new rules and changes an=
d the rest of the BPFK or community or LLG should vote on them by some suit=
ably intelligent voting method. You could make it more democratic by allowi=
ng anyone to submit proposed changes, but I would be inclined to vote for e=
xactly whatever xorxes and selpahi propose. Those innovations elected would=
 be deemed to supersede CLL where there is incompatibility. And then textbo=
ok writers can write it up. Admittedly, that already happened for xorlo, bu=
t nobody has yet textbooked it.</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888"><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">--And.</div></font><=
/span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@<wbr>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--f403045cf798dc3627055ddf5743--