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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:35:00 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+jv-SA8jHLsbzoGJe1SE17n-VOp9-6O_8d1r6Bx3S7eOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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2017-11-15 12:37 GMT+03:00 <sukender1@gmail.com>:

> And, you told that there are 3 groups. If I rephrase:
>
>    1. CLL 1.1 "purists", who want to "NOT throw away" what has been
>    learned
>    2. The ones who want to "bug fix" CLL regarding to logic.
>    3. The ones who want to "upgrade" CLL.
>
> It is not clear to me if 2nd and 3rd ideas would break up *many* things
> (thus forcing to "re-learn" when having learned CLL 1.1), or only details=
.
> Somebody has clues on this?
>


How do 2.3. necessarily conflict with 1.?

There are several levels of deviation from CLL:
https://jbotcan.org/lojban/en/dialects/ (which ignores internal conflicts
of CLL, which is your group 2.).
E.g.
krtisfrank's connectives
<https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/en/#sisku/xoi%27u> are a Dialect,
type 2.
xorxe's connectives are probably a Dialect, type 3.
solpahi's connectives are a Dialect, type 4.


(And yes, each potential change would have to be evaluated on that
> question.)
>
> Aside from that, I feel that the 2nd and 3rd group should agree to perfor=
m
> first common steps altogether. Isn't it the case? If not, why?
>
> la .sykyndyr.
>
>
>
> Le lundi 13 novembre 2017 16:44:47 UTC+1, And Rosta a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8 Nov 2017 12:54, "Timothy Lawrence" <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> *> We have long known that CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is
>> not internally consistent,*
>>
>> What do you mean?
>>
>>
>> CLL does not give complete and consistent rules for unambiguously mappin=
g
>> Lojban sentences to logical forms. For folk for whom Lojban's purportedl=
y
>> being a logical language is its paramount property, that is a big deal.
>>
>>
>> Is there something that documents this?
>>
>>
>> I don't know. It's certainly there in the mail archives and antique wiki
>> pages. Selpahi read through 25 years of email and wiki discussion in ord=
er
>> to understand the issues.
>>
>> My sense is that the folk who care about logic are more interested simpl=
y
>> in mending the language rather than in creating documents that focus on
>> explaining in one place all the problems with CLL Lojban, but there may
>> well be newer expository stuff I don't know about.
>>
>> A complicating factor is that not only is the community divided into
>> those who care about logic and those who don't (and can therefore favour
>> CLL Lojban), those who care about logic are in turn divided into those w=
ho
>> want to make the minimum changes to CLL Lojban to sort out the logical
>> issues and those who think that if you're going to make any changes at a=
ll
>> then you might as well fix some of the most egregious design flaws in or=
der
>> to make the language much more user-friendly. Essentially the two positi=
ons
>> weigh the effort invested by the few people who have learnt CLL thorough=
ly
>> against the much larger but more hypothetical number who might learn and
>> use Lojban in future.
>>
>>
>>
>> *> is not complete,*
>>
>> I agree and would like to help complete it.
>>
>>
>> This is the job of the BPFK, but not much progres is visible from that
>> group.
>>
>> In my view, xorxes and selpahi should simply define bodies of candidate
>> new rules and changes and the rest of the BPFK or community or LLG shoul=
d
>> vote on them by some suitably intelligent voting method. You could make =
it
>> more democratic by allowing anyone to submit proposed changes, but I wou=
ld
>> be inclined to vote for exactly whatever xorxes and selpahi propose. Tho=
se
>> innovations elected would be deemed to supersede CLL where there is
>> incompatibility. And then textbook writers can write it up. Admittedly,
>> that already happened for xorlo, but nobody has yet textbooked it.
>>
>> --And.
>>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2017-11-15 12:37 GMT+03:00  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suk=
ender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>And=
, you told that there are 3 groups. If I rephrase:</div><div><ol><li>CLL 1.=
1 &quot;purists&quot;, who want to &quot;NOT throw away&quot; what has been=
 learned<br></li><li>The ones who want to &quot;bug fix&quot; CLL regarding=
 to logic.<br></li><li>The ones who want to &quot;upgrade&quot; CLL.</li></=
ol></div><div>It is not clear to me if 2nd and 3rd ideas would break up <u>=
<b>many</b></u> things (thus forcing to &quot;re-learn&quot; when having le=
arned CLL 1.1), or only details. Somebody has clues on this?</div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>How do 2.3. necessarily confli=
ct with 1.?</div><div><br></div><div>There are several levels of deviation =
from CLL:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://jbotcan.org/lojban/en/dialects/">https://=
jbotcan.org/lojban/en/dialects/</a> (which ignores internal conflicts of CL=
L, which is your group 2.).=C2=A0<br></div><div>E.g.=C2=A0</div><div><a hre=
f=3D"https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/en/#sisku/xoi%27u">krtisfrank=
9;s connectives</a>=C2=A0are a Dialect, type 2.</div><div>xorxe&#39;s conne=
ctives are probably a Dialect, type 3.</div><div>solpahi&#39;s connectives =
are a Dialect, type 4.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div>(And yes, each potential change would have to be evaluated on tha=
t question.)</div><div><br></div><div>Aside from that, I feel that the 2nd =
and 3rd group should agree to perform first common steps altogether. Isn=
9;t it the case? If not, why?</div><div><br></div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div><=
div><br></div><br><br>Le lundi 13 novembre 2017 16:44:47 UTC+1, And Rosta a=
 =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<span class=3D"gmail-"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 8 Nov 2017 12:54, &quot;Timothy Lawrence&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollo=
w">timothy....@connect.qut.edu.<wbr>au</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attributio=
n"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(=
204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calib=
ri,Helvetica,sans-serif,EmojiFont,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe=
 UI Emoji&quot;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Em=
oji&quot;,EmojiSymbols"><div>
<p></p>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">We have long known that=
 CLL Lojban is not logically unambiguous, is not internally consistent,</sp=
an></b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div><div>What do you mean? </div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">CLL does not give complete=
 and consistent rules for unambiguously mapping Lojban sentences to logical=
 forms. For folk for whom Lojban&#39;s purportedly being a logical language=
 is its paramount property, that is a big deal.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,=
sans-serif,EmojiFont,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quo=
t;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot;,Emo=
jiSymbols"><div>Is there something that documents this?</div></div></div></=
blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
I don&#39;t know. It&#39;s certainly there in the mail archives and antique=
 wiki pages. Selpahi read through 25 years of email and wiki discussion in =
order to understand the issues.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">My sense is that the folk who care about logic are more inter=
ested simply in mending the language rather than in creating documents that=
 focus on explaining in one place all the problems with CLL Lojban, but the=
re may well be newer expository stuff I don&#39;t know about.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A complicating factor is that not onl=
y is the community divided into those who care about logic and those who do=
n&#39;t (and can therefore favour CLL Lojban), those who care about logic a=
re in turn divided into those who want to make the minimum changes to CLL L=
ojban to sort out the logical issues and those who think that if you&#39;re=
 going to make any changes at all then you might as well fix some of the mo=
st egregious design flaws in order to make the language much more user-frie=
ndly. Essentially the two positions weigh the effort invested by the few pe=
ople who have learnt CLL thoroughly against the much larger but more hypoth=
etical number who might learn and use Lojban in future.</div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,=
sans-serif,EmojiFont,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quo=
t;,NotoColorEmoji,&quot;Segoe UI Symbol&quot;,&quot;Android Emoji&quot;,Emo=
jiSymbols">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">is not complete,</span>=
</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree and would like to help complete it.</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This is=
 the job of the BPFK, but not much progres is visible from that group.</div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">In my view, xorxes and selpa=
hi should simply define bodies of candidate new rules and changes and the r=
est of the BPFK or community or LLG should vote on them by some suitably in=
telligent voting method. You could make it more democratic by allowing anyo=
ne to submit proposed changes, but I would be inclined to vote for exactly =
whatever xorxes and selpahi propose. Those innovations elected would be dee=
med to supersede CLL where there is incompatibility. And then textbook writ=
ers can write it up. Admittedly, that already happened for xorlo, but nobod=
y has yet textbooked it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>--And.</div></div>
</blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><div class=3D"gmail-h=
5">

<p></p>

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<p></p>

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