Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 05:36:57 -0800 (PST)
From: sukender1@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <9acdeb52-885b-4ed6-b52b-7146d9cc73bf@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7bV+jv-SA8jHLsbzoGJe1SE17n-VOp9-6O_8d1r6Bx3S7eOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com>
 <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <SY3PR01MB0873C992D556B090F308980EEB510@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACf3dPnmCuGXQtxQOOrP9T9pDthhthx3rnoCdaFoai+fM8M6Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <SY3PR01MB08733806D926A36CF1726EB0EB560@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CACf3dPncGvkjQjbxL4MV_omG0R-e66V1CDcZFrt2hVU8iYWf0w@mail.gmail.com> <963393d6-a9f1-4232-be13-b4ee76eb69e1@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7bV+jv-SA8jHLsbzoGJe1SE17n-VOp9-6O_8d1r6Bx3S7eOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5750_1188811317.1510753017796"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.8
X-Spam_score_int: -17
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_5750_1188811317.1510753017796
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_5751_1412173698.1510753017796"

------=_Part_5751_1412173698.1510753017796
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"


>
> It is not clear to me if 2nd and 3rd ideas would break up *many* things 
>> (thus forcing to "re-learn" when having learned CLL 1.1), or only details. 
>> Somebody has clues on this?
>>
>
>
> How do 2.3. necessarily conflict with 1.?
>

Well, it is linked to what timoteios told about backward-compatibility. So 
yes, you're right. There may be "non breaking" changes. But I guess that 2. 
and 3. are not 100% free of breaking changes. Don't you think? Or maybe the 
situation is to be looked at from a different angle (regarding to the 
impact of changes)?

Furthermore, what is an "acceptable" breaking change is very subtle and 
subjective. Examples:

   - Changing details about maths may affect more engineers and researchers 
   than others.
   - Beginners will be less impacted by breaking changes than long-standing 
   speakers. I have personally read the whole CLL 1.1 and learned with it. 
   However I'm still a beginner and the impact of changes is rather low for me 
   (for now...).
   - Changing details about attidudinals may affect more Asian-languages 
   native speakers than European-languages ones (not sure of that, but sounds 
   reasonable).
   - (and surely much more...)

 
> There are several levels of deviation from CLL: 
> https://jbotcan.org/lojban/en/dialects/ (which ignores internal conflicts 
> of CLL, which is your group 2.). 
> E.g. 
> krtisfrank's connectives 
> <https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/en/#sisku/xoi%27u> are a Dialect, 
> type 2.
> xorxe's connectives are probably a Dialect, type 3.
> solpahi's connectives are a Dialect, type 4.
>
>
Thanks for the info. I guess those "types" are closely related to the 
"level" of breaking changes, but are not the same.
What to you think about this?

Finally, maybe that "level" could be evaluated with a "grid" (ie. multiple 
"grades" about various impact topics), being *unique for all submissions*. 
For example:

   - How much does it change the grammar? (ex: 0/5, 1/5...)
   - How much does it change existing words?
   - How much does it increase the vocabulary (word count)?
   - How close new words/rules are to existing ones?
   - (etc.)

This may help reviewing, by allowing *only* low global grades.
Just my 2 cents on this point! ;)

la .sykyndyr.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_5751_1412173698.1510753017796
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margi=
n-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It is not clear to me if 2nd and 3rd ideas=
 would break up <u><b>many</b></u> things (thus forcing to &quot;re-learn&q=
uot; when having learned CLL 1.1), or only details. Somebody has clues on t=
his?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>How do 2.3.=
 necessarily conflict with 1.?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Well, it is linked to what timoteios told about backward-compat=
ibility. So yes, you&#39;re right. There may be &quot;non breaking&quot; ch=
anges. But I guess that 2. and 3. are not 100% free of breaking changes. Do=
n&#39;t you think? Or maybe the situation is to be looked at from a differe=
nt angle (regarding to the impact of changes)?</div><div><br></div><div>Fur=
thermore, what is an &quot;acceptable&quot; breaking change is very subtle =
and subjective. Examples:</div><div><div><ul><li>Changing details about mat=
hs may affect more engineers and researchers than others.<br></li><li>Begin=
ners will be less impacted by breaking changes than long-standing speakers.=
 I have personally read the whole CLL 1.1 and learned with it. However I=
9;m still a beginner and the impact of changes is rather low for me (for no=
w...).<br></li><li>Changing details about attidudinals may affect more Asia=
n-languages native speakers than European-languages ones (not sure of that,=
 but sounds reasonable).</li><li>(and surely much more...)</li></ul></div><=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;=
margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>There are several =
levels of deviation from CLL:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://jbotcan.org/lojban/en=
/dialects/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&=
#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjbotcan.org%2Flojban%2Fen=
%2Fdialects%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFV9Elphl2-F_buKMNS-7=
qIxnzIHw&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.=
com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjbotcan.org%2Flojban%2Fen%2Fdialects%2F\x26sa\x3=
dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFV9Elphl2-F_buKMNS-7qIxnzIHw&#39;;return tr=
ue;">https://jbotcan.org/<wbr>lojban/en/dialects/</a> (which ignores intern=
al conflicts of CLL, which is your group 2.).=C2=A0<br></div><div>E.g.=C2=
=A0</div><div><a href=3D"https://la-lojban.github.io/sutysisku/en/#sisku/xo=
i%27u" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;h=
ttps://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fla-lojban.github.io%2Fsutysisk=
u%2Fen%2F%23sisku%2Fxoi%2527u\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH8E0O=
Mc7Ds9AlnmQhg9Q6Dt3mdpQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http=
s://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fla-lojban.github.io%2Fsutysisku%2=
Fen%2F%23sisku%2Fxoi%2527u\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNH8E0OMc7=
Ds9AlnmQhg9Q6Dt3mdpQ&#39;;return true;">krtisfrank&#39;s connectives</a>=C2=
=A0are a Dialect, type 2.</div><div>xorxe&#39;s connectives are probably a =
Dialect, type 3.</div><div>solpahi&#39;s connectives are a Dialect, type 4.=
</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks for the info. I guess those &quot;types&quot; are closely related to th=
e &quot;level&quot; of breaking changes, but are not the same.</div><div>Wh=
at to you think about this?</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, maybe that &q=
uot;level&quot; could be evaluated with a &quot;grid&quot; (ie. multiple &q=
uot;grades&quot; about various impact topics), being <u><b>unique for all s=
ubmissions</b></u>. For example:<br></div><div><ul><li>How much does it cha=
nge the grammar? (ex: 0/5, 1/5...)</li><li>How much does it change existing=
 words?</li><li>How much does it increase the vocabulary (word count)?</li>=
<li>How close new words/rules are to existing ones?</li><li>(etc.)</li></ul=
></div><div>This may help reviewing, by allowing <b><u>only</u></b>=C2=A0lo=
w global grades.</div><div>Just my 2 cents on this point! ;)</div><div><br>=
</div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_5751_1412173698.1510753017796--

------=_Part_5750_1188811317.1510753017796--