Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:54:18 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: The Wizard of Oz
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ki'e la bremenli
(Thank you Vincent Broman!)

i ku'i ma'i lo si'o fukyzifpo'e kei
gau ko cu e'i pagbu
fa lo se du'u do fanva lo versiio po la selpa'i lo cu'u catni jbobau fu lo=
=20
versiio po do kei
fe lo se cupra
(However, for the copyright notion, you must make the result include a=20
description that you translated from Selpahi's version into the so-called=
=20
[Note 1] official Lojban.)

ni'o i'e xamgu mi fa lo nu pagbu fa lo sed zei jufra fe lo se gubgau
(By the way, it's nice that you published it with the sed scripts.)

mi'e la guskant
(Guskant)


[Note 1]

You said you used camxes for checking the text, but there are some versions=
=20
of camxes that reflect so-called official grammar without mentioning the=20
difference.
I believe that the parsers at http://camxes.lojban.org and=20
http://masatohagiwara.net/camxes.js/ relfect the original Camgusmis-Xorxes=
=20
version of grammar, but it does not include some recent BPFK decisions like=
=20
"ban on glide after consonant".
Another parser at http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html used to=20
include decisions by BPFK, but since 2016-03-27, it has been developed by=
=20
the Lojban Coders' Group without any consultation with BPFK. See my report=
=20
below for detail:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/e94H-wdh5gc/u2tzLm74AQAJ

In order to solve this chaotic status of the so-called official Lojban, I=
=20
consulted BPFK recently. One of my ideas for solution is to create github=
=20
repositories owned by all and only BPFK menbers, and to maintain camxes and=
=20
BPFK documents by themselves. Gleki agreed, but no others answered. See the=
=20
thread below for detail:
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/saI34rwnvw8/discussion

[End of Note 1.]


Le dimanche 26 novembre 2017 16:36:08 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit :
>
> coi ro do
>
> We owe some gratitude to la selpahi, who put a lot of work into=20
> translating into lojban an entire children's book, The Wizard of Oz.
> The story is a fun one for adult language learners, too, and it should be=
=20
> worthwhile for study.
> The only trouble is that what we have is a rough draft, with plenty of=20
> errors and irregularities.
> As a thank-offering finished during Thanksgiving week, I offer a draft of=
=20
> the book which I have extensively copy-edited, although with very little=
=20
> content editing.
> This should be even more worthy of a student's attention.
>
> The text has been completely spell-checked and grammar-checked by a=20
> standard parser called camxes.
> Since the existing form of text exhibits some non-standard grammar and=20
> vocabulary, this has been made standard according to CLL+BPFK.
> I have benefitted from previous commentary on the web pointing out some=
=20
> grammar issues.
>
> One troublesome pattern found is the form of quoted speech.
> We mostly have "lu X sei dy cusku lihu" instead of "lu X lihu se cusku dy=
".
> Unfortunately when we want to connect sentences logically or temporally,=
=20
> we find that a quoted sentence is not a sentence; it is a fragment.
> Similarly, "niho ba bo" does not work the same as "i ba bo".
> These necessitated some restructuring, which was not always perfectly=20
> satisfactory.
>
> As a matter of taste, I made some other surface changes.
> The unneeded accents marked on vowels were dropped, but the decorative=20
> punctuation remains.
> Many compound words now appear in a permissible form which is not that=20
> found in a dictionary: specifically CVhV compound affixes were generally=
=20
> replaced by long affixes. [Why, argued separately.]
> Online dictionary lookups still work, of course.
> The letter h represents yhy bu.  Lines are formatted with "i" at the end=
=20
> and "niho" at the beginning.
>
> One substantive global kind of change was made.
> Among all the uses of "la", there were many cases where it is followed by=
=20
> a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a name, but a=20
> description, for example "la tolvirnu cinfo".
> All such non-names got "la" replaced with "le".
>
> As a final detail, in expressions like "the great and terrible Oz", we=20
> cannot say "banli je xlatce".
> This English usage is old-fashioned, and to express this sense of "great=
=20
> and terrible" we want to say instead "banli je tcetepygau".
>
> Besides the final form of text, I offer alongside it the original I worke=
d=20
> from, a simple python reformatter, and the sed scripts that perform the=
=20
> copy-editing in scripted fashion, mostly one error per sed command.
> This allows someone who doesn't share my preferences to alter the scripts=
=20
> and produce his own form, or for an auditor to examine what changed in=20
> detail.
> Constructive criticism of the results can be discussed here if of public=
=20
> interest, otherwise just email me.
>
> *https://app.box.com/s/z3qg2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8btp=20
> <https://app.box.com/s/z3qg2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8btp>*
>
> mihe la bremenli
> Vincent Broman
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>ki&#39;e la bremenli</div><div>(Thank you Vincent Bro=
man!)</div><div><br></div><div>i ku&#39;i ma&#39;i lo si&#39;o fukyzifpo=
9;e kei</div><div>gau ko cu e&#39;i pagbu</div><div>fa lo se du&#39;u do fa=
nva lo versiio po la selpa&#39;i lo cu&#39;u catni jbobau fu lo versiio po =
do kei</div><div>fe lo se cupra</div><div>(However, for the copyright notio=
n, you must make the result include a description that you translated from =
Selpahi&#39;s version into the so-called [Note 1] official Lojban.)</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>ni&#39;o i&#39;e xamgu mi fa lo nu pagbu fa lo sed zei ju=
fra fe lo se gubgau</div><div>(By the way, it&#39;s nice that you published=
 it with the sed scripts.)</div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e la guskant</di=
v><div>(Guskant)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[Note 1]</div><div=
><br></div><div>You said you used camxes for checking the text, but there a=
re some versions of camxes that reflect so-called official grammar without =
mentioning the difference.</div><div>I believe that the parsers at http://c=
amxes.lojban.org and http://masatohagiwara.net/camxes.js/ relfect the origi=
nal Camgusmis-Xorxes version of grammar, but it does not include some recen=
t BPFK decisions like &quot;ban on glide after consonant&quot;.</div><div>A=
nother parser at http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html used to incl=
ude decisions by BPFK, but since 2016-03-27, it has been developed by the L=
ojban Coders&#39; Group without any consultation with BPFK. See my report b=
elow for detail:</div><div>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/e94H-wdh5=
gc/u2tzLm74AQAJ</div><div><br></div><div>In order to solve this chaotic sta=
tus of the so-called official Lojban, I consulted BPFK recently. One of my =
ideas for solution is to create github repositories owned by all and only B=
PFK menbers, and to maintain camxes and BPFK documents by themselves. Gleki=
 agreed, but no others answered. See the thread below for detail:</div><div=
>https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bpfk-list/saI34rwnvw8/discussion</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>[End of Note 1.]</div><div><br></div><br>Le dimanche 26 n=
ovembre 2017 16:36:08 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">coi ro do<br><br>We owe som=
e gratitude to la selpahi, who put a lot of work into translating into lojb=
an an entire children&#39;s book, The Wizard of Oz.<br>The story is a fun o=
ne for adult language learners, too, and it should be worthwhile for study.=
<br>The only trouble is that what we have is a rough draft, with plenty of =
errors and irregularities.<br>As a thank-offering finished during Thanksgiv=
ing week, I offer a draft of the book which I have extensively copy-edited,=
 although with very little content editing.<br>This should be even more wor=
thy of a student&#39;s attention.<br><br>The text has been completely spell=
-checked and grammar-checked by a standard parser called camxes.<br>Since t=
he existing form of text exhibits some non-standard grammar and vocabulary,=
 this has been made standard according to CLL+BPFK.<br>I have benefitted fr=
om previous commentary on the web pointing out some grammar issues.<br><br>=
One troublesome pattern found is the form of quoted speech.<br>We mostly ha=
ve &quot;lu X sei dy cusku lihu&quot; instead of &quot;lu X lihu se cusku d=
y&quot;.<br>Unfortunately when we want to connect sentences logically or te=
mporally, we find that a quoted sentence is not a sentence; it is a fragmen=
t.<br>Similarly, &quot;niho ba bo&quot; does not work the same as &quot;i b=
a bo&quot;.<br>These necessitated some restructuring, which was not always =
perfectly satisfactory.<br><br>As a matter of taste, I made some other surf=
ace changes.<br>The unneeded accents marked on vowels were dropped, but the=
 decorative punctuation remains.<br>Many compound words now appear in a per=
missible form which is not that found in a dictionary: specifically CVhV co=
mpound affixes were generally replaced by long affixes. [Why, argued separa=
tely.]<br>Online dictionary lookups still work, of course.<br>The letter h =
represents yhy bu.=C2=A0 Lines are formatted with &quot;i&quot; at the end =
and &quot;niho&quot; at the beginning.<br><br>One substantive global kind o=
f change was made.<br>Among all the uses of &quot;la&quot;, there were many=
 cases where it is followed by a verb phrase, and where the expression is n=
ot at all a name, but a description, for example &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&qu=
ot;.<br>All such non-names got &quot;la&quot; replaced with &quot;le&quot;.=
<br><br>As a final detail, in expressions like &quot;the great and terrible=
 Oz&quot;, we cannot say &quot;banli je xlatce&quot;.<br>This English usage=
 is old-fashioned, and to express this sense of &quot;great and terrible&qu=
ot; we want to say instead &quot;banli je tcetepygau&quot;.<br><br>Besides =
the final form of text, I offer alongside it the original I worked from, a =
simple python reformatter, and the sed scripts that perform the copy-editin=
g in scripted fashion, mostly one error per sed command.<br>This allows som=
eone who doesn&#39;t share my preferences to alter the scripts and produce =
his own form, or for an auditor to examine what changed in detail.<br>Const=
ructive criticism of the results can be discussed here if of public interes=
t, otherwise just email me.<br><br><b><a href=3D"https://app.box.com/s/z3qg=
2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8btp" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedow=
n=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fapp.box=
.com%2Fs%2Fz3qg2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8btp\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\=
x3dAFQjCNFTBenFP0pG7lNr1ClxVb8mluWIzA&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.hr=
ef=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fapp.box.com%2Fs%2Fz=
3qg2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8btp\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFTB=
enFP0pG7lNr1ClxVb8mluWIzA&#39;;return true;">https://app.box.com/s/<wbr>z3q=
g2kx2m2qk5xnx0gi2rk2292ek8b<wbr>tp</a></b><br><br>mihe la bremenli<br>Vince=
nt Broman<br><br></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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