Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 08:05:43 -0800 (PST)
From: vpbroman@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz
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And,

As I read it, xorlo "le" and "la" are pretty much the same as in CLL,=20
except for default quantification.
In CLL around 6.2.6 I understand that a name (a cmene or a la sumti) is an=
=20
arbitrary identifier, attached to something by the act of naming, instead=
=20
of by reference to dictionary meanings and observation.

`` The last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indic=
ates that the=20
selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal meaning and is=
=20
being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9Cla=
=E2=80=9D descriptions are=20
implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. ''

In the original translation of "the Cowardly Lion" as "la tolvirnu cinfo",=
=20
for example, this identification is used because the critter is cowardly=20
and he is a lion, it's not some kind of CB handle.
None of the "la" expressions I'm concerned about ever get used with a=20
vocative.
They are descriptive phrases that seem to me to be very standard cases for=
=20
using "le".
We should write "le xamgu termakfyfetsi", "le smani", "le rijno cutci", etc=
.

Is there a variety of lojban where this is not the case?

la bremenli

On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:
>
>
>
> On 26 Nov 2017 16:36, <vpbr...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>
> One substantive global kind of change was made.
> Among all the uses of "la", there were many cases where it is followed by=
=20
> a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a name, but a=20
> description, for example "la tolvirnu cinfo".
> All such non-names got "la" replaced with "le".
>
>
>
> That looks a deleterious change, unless post-xorlo "le" has been=20
> completely redefined from what it formerly was. The original "la" capture=
s=20
> properly the English, whereas semitraditional "le" does not at all. (By=
=20
> "semitraditional" I mean to exclude the habitual solecistic misuse that=
=20
> prevailed in early Lojban writing, where "le" was used as the default=20
> gadri, with sillinesses such as "le nu".)
>
> --And.
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">And,<br><br>As I read it, xorlo &quot;le&quot; and &quot;l=
a&quot; are pretty much the same as in CLL, except for default quantificati=
on.<br>In CLL around 6.2.6 I understand that a name (a cmene or a la sumti)=
 is an arbitrary identifier, attached to something by the act of naming, in=
stead of by reference to dictionary meanings and observation.<br><br>`` The=
 last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indicates t=
hat the selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal meanin=
g and is being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=
=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D descriptions are implicitly restricted to those I have in=
 mind. &#39;&#39;<br><br>In the original translation of &quot;the Cowardly =
Lion&quot; as &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot;, for example, this identificati=
on is used because the critter is cowardly and he is a lion, it&#39;s not s=
ome kind of CB handle.<br>None of the &quot;la&quot; expressions I&#39;m co=
ncerned about ever get used with a vocative.<br>They are descriptive phrase=
s that seem to me to be very standard cases for using &quot;le&quot;.<br>We=
 should write &quot;le xamgu termakfyfetsi&quot;, &quot;le smani&quot;, &qu=
ot;le rijno cutci&quot;, etc.<br><br>Is there a variety of lojban where thi=
s is not the case?<br><br>la bremenli<br><br>On Monday, November 27, 2017 a=
t 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 26 =
Nov 2017 16:36,  &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscat=
ed-mailto=3D"QO7qm49oBQAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39=
;javascript:&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39=
;;return true;">vpbr...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>One substantive global kind of change was made.=
<br>Among all the uses of &quot;la&quot;, there were many cases where it is=
 followed by a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a name, =
but a description, for example &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot;.<br>All such n=
on-names got &quot;la&quot; replaced with &quot;le&quot;.<br></div></blockq=
uote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">That looks a deleterious change, unless post-xorlo &q=
uot;le&quot; has been completely redefined from what it formerly was. The o=
riginal &quot;la&quot; captures properly the English, whereas semitradition=
al &quot;le&quot; does not at all. (By &quot;semitraditional&quot; I mean t=
o exclude the habitual solecistic misuse that prevailed in early Lojban wri=
ting, where &quot;le&quot; was used as the default gadri, with sillinesses =
such as &quot;le nu&quot;.)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">--And.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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