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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 12:23:55 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz
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  Actually, Cowardly Lion is often  treated as his name inasmuch as, being
a lion, he didn't properly have one (note, for example, that it is always
capitalized in the books).  In *Enchanted Island of Oz*, he was briefly
called "Cowy" but, thankfully, that nickname didn't stick.  (That being
said, I agree that "le" is better than "la" in this case.)

         --gejyspa

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

> And,
>
> As I read it, xorlo "le" and "la" are pretty much the same as in CLL,
> except for default quantification.
> In CLL around 6.2.6 I understand that a name (a cmene or a la sumti) is a=
n
> arbitrary identifier, attached to something by the act of naming, instead
> of by reference to dictionary meanings and observation.
>
> `` The last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which ind=
icates that the
> selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal meaning and =
is
> being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9Cla=
=E2=80=9D descriptions are
> implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. ''
>
> In the original translation of "the Cowardly Lion" as "la tolvirnu cinfo"=
,
> for example, this identification is used because the critter is cowardly
> and he is a lion, it's not some kind of CB handle.
> None of the "la" expressions I'm concerned about ever get used with a
> vocative.
> They are descriptive phrases that seem to me to be very standard cases fo=
r
> using "le".
> We should write "le xamgu termakfyfetsi", "le smani", "le rijno cutci",
> etc.
>
> Is there a variety of lojban where this is not the case?
>
> la bremenli
>
> On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 Nov 2017 16:36, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> One substantive global kind of change was made.
>> Among all the uses of "la", there were many cases where it is followed b=
y
>> a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a name, but a
>> description, for example "la tolvirnu cinfo".
>> All such non-names got "la" replaced with "le".
>>
>>
>>
>> That looks a deleterious change, unless post-xorlo "le" has been
>> completely redefined from what it formerly was. The original "la" captur=
es
>> properly the English, whereas semitraditional "le" does not at all. (By
>> "semitraditional" I mean to exclude the habitual solecistic misuse that
>> prevailed in early Lojban writing, where "le" was used as the default
>> gadri, with sillinesses such as "le nu".)
>>
>> --And.
>>
>>
>> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 Actually, Cowardly Lion is often=C2=A0 treated as h=
is name inasmuch as, being a lion, he didn&#39;t properly have one (note, f=
or example, that it is always capitalized in the books).=C2=A0 In <i>Enchan=
ted Island of Oz</i>, he was briefly called &quot;Cowy&quot; but, thankfull=
y, that nickname didn&#39;t stick.=C2=A0 (That being said, I agree that &qu=
ot;le&quot; is better than &quot;la&quot; in this case.)<div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM,  <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">And,<br><br>As I read it, xorlo &quot;le&quot; and &quot=
;la&quot; are pretty much the same as in CLL, except for default quantifica=
tion.<br>In CLL around 6.2.6 I understand that a name (a cmene or a la sumt=
i) is an arbitrary identifier, attached to something by the act of naming, =
instead of by reference to dictionary meanings and observation.<br><br>`` T=
he last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indicates=
 that the selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal mean=
ing and is being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =
=E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D descriptions are implicitly restricted to those I have=
 in mind. &#39;&#39;<br><br>In the original translation of &quot;the Coward=
ly Lion&quot; as &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot;, for example, this identific=
ation is used because the critter is cowardly and he is a lion, it&#39;s no=
t some kind of CB handle.<br>None of the &quot;la&quot; expressions I&#39;m=
 concerned about ever get used with a vocative.<br>They are descriptive phr=
ases that seem to me to be very standard cases for using &quot;le&quot;.<br=
>We should write &quot;le xamgu termakfyfetsi&quot;, &quot;le smani&quot;, =
&quot;le rijno cutci&quot;, etc.<br><br>Is there a variety of lojban where =
this is not the case?<br><br>la bremenli<br><br>On Monday, November 27, 201=
7 at 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:<span class=3D""><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On 26 Nov 2017 16:36,  &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">vpbr...@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>One s=
ubstantive global kind of change was made.<br>Among all the uses of &quot;l=
a&quot;, there were many cases where it is followed by a verb phrase, and w=
here the expression is not at all a name, but a description, for example &q=
uot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot;.<br>All such non-names got &quot;la&quot; repla=
ced with &quot;le&quot;.<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That look=
s a deleterious change, unless post-xorlo &quot;le&quot; has been completel=
y redefined from what it formerly was. The original &quot;la&quot; captures=
 properly the English, whereas semitraditional &quot;le&quot; does not at a=
ll. (By &quot;semitraditional&quot; I mean to exclude the habitual solecist=
ic misuse that prevailed in early Lojban writing, where &quot;le&quot; was =
used as the default gadri, with sillinesses such as &quot;le nu&quot;.)</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">--And.</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></bl=
ockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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