Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4333e9b5-ac2e-4011-b717-7c98c491b9c1@googlegroups.com>
References: <8929082b-8275-4e7b-b759-939361737a1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CACf3dP=UwsnqJouGue2x0Q7BVz_ZpoMhnSGEaq+1MesisQ-yFg@mail.gmail.com> <4333e9b5-ac2e-4011-b717-7c98c491b9c1@googlegroups.com>
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 19:06:36 +0000
Message-ID: <CACf3dP=SR35SxJHzTs9DoYEEQDCh3cUZu_5KmMdf52BGJzk_KA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c3988abae19055f23d523"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.0
X-Spam_score_int: -19
X-Spam_bar: --

--f403045c3988abae19055f23d523
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 29 November 2017 at 16:05, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

> And,
>
> As I read it, xorlo "le" and "la" are pretty much the same as in CLL,
> except for default quantification.
> In CLL around 6.2.6 I understand that a name (a cmene or a la sumti) is a=
n
> arbitrary identifier, attached to something by the act of naming, instead
> of by reference to dictionary meanings and observation.
>
> `` The last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which ind=
icates that the
> selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal meaning and =
is
> being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9Cla=
=E2=80=9D descriptions are
> implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. ''
>
> In the original translation of "the Cowardly Lion" as "la tolvirnu cinfo"=
,
> for example, this identification is used because the critter is cowardly
> and he is a lion, it's not some kind of CB handle.
> None of the "la" expressions I'm concerned about ever get used with a
> vocative.
> They are descriptive phrases that seem to me to be very standard cases fo=
r
> using "le".
> We should write "le xamgu termakfyfetsi", "le smani", "le rijno cutci",
> etc.
>
> Is there a variety of lojban where this is not the case?
>

We can see from the capitalization that "Cowardly Lion" is a name; it may
or may not be etymologically aptronymous, and even if it is aptronymous,
the underlying description, "cowardly lion", is only the reason for why
that phrase became CL's name and is not the name itself. And if the names
are not used vocatively, that just suggests that the name is applied by the
narrator and not by the characters. That was as far as the thinking behind
my original reply got. It now also occurs to me that "la tolvirnu cinfo"
doesn't distinguish between "Cowardly Lion" and "the Cowardly Lion", but I
can't think of how that English distinction, whose semantic import (if
there is any) is not at all apparent to me, might be rendered in Lojban.
"Le tolvirnu cinfo" is, of course, not a name; and it is well to remember
that "le" may be glossed "a(n)" just as well as "the", so it's as if CL
were constantly referred to as "a cowardly lion", which is something nobody
but Jaqen H'ghar would do. "le" primarily encodes specificity whereas
English names (not even those of "the X" sort) don't.

It's interesting to wonder what translation would have been suitable had
the original not been a name, and if instead the character were simply
always referred to as "the cowardly lion": the main semantic ingredient
contributed by the "the" then would be the definiteness. "lo bi'u nai
tolvirnu cinfo" captures the definiteness but of course foregrounds it too
much, and probably "lo tolvirnu cinfo" would be the best rendition.

What motivated me to make my original response was not just that "le
tolvirnu cinfo" is very inferior to "la tolvirnu cinfo" as a rendition of
the English but also that it was a change inflicted on somebody else's
translation and furthermore was inflicted on it as if it were a correction
rather than an incorrection.

--And.


>
> la bremenli
>
> On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 26 Nov 2017 16:36, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> One substantive global kind of change was made.
>> Among all the uses of "la", there were many cases where it is followed b=
y
>> a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a name, but a
>> description, for example "la tolvirnu cinfo".
>> All such non-names got "la" replaced with "le".
>>
>>
>>
>> That looks a deleterious change, unless post-xorlo "le" has been
>> completely redefined from what it formerly was. The original "la" captur=
es
>> properly the English, whereas semitraditional "le" does not at all. (By
>> "semitraditional" I mean to exclude the habitual solecistic misuse that
>> prevailed in early Lojban writing, where "le" was used as the default
>> gadri, with sillinesses such as "le nu".)
>>
>> --And.
>>
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&ut=
m_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&ut=
m_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--f403045c3988abae19055f23d523
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 29 November 2017 at 16:05,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
vpbroman@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">And,<br><br>As I rea=
d it, xorlo &quot;le&quot; and &quot;la&quot; are pretty much the same as i=
n CLL, except for default quantification.<br>In CLL around 6.2.6 I understa=
nd that a name (a cmene or a la sumti) is an arbitrary identifier, attached=
 to something by the act of naming, instead of by reference to dictionary m=
eanings and observation.<br><br>`` The last descriptor of this section is =
=E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indicates that the selbri which follows it has =
been dissociated from its normal meaning and is being used as a name. Like =
=E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D descriptions are im=
plicitly restricted to those I have in mind. &#39;&#39;<br><br>In the origi=
nal translation of &quot;the Cowardly Lion&quot; as &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo=
&quot;, for example, this identification is used because the critter is cow=
ardly and he is a lion, it&#39;s not some kind of CB handle.<br>None of the=
 &quot;la&quot; expressions I&#39;m concerned about ever get used with a vo=
cative.<br>They are descriptive phrases that seem to me to be very standard=
 cases for using &quot;le&quot;.<br>We should write &quot;le xamgu termakfy=
fetsi&quot;, &quot;le smani&quot;, &quot;le rijno cutci&quot;, etc.<br><br>=
Is there a variety of lojban where this is not the case?<br></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>We can see from the capitalization that &quot;Cowar=
dly Lion&quot; is a name; it may or may not be etymologically aptronymous, =
and even if it is aptronymous, the underlying description, &quot;cowardly l=
ion&quot;, is only the reason for why that phrase became CL&#39;s name and =
is not the name itself. And if the names are not used vocatively, that just=
 suggests that the name is applied by the narrator and not by the character=
s. That was as far as the thinking behind my original reply got. It now als=
o occurs to me that &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot; doesn&#39;t distinguish b=
etween &quot;Cowardly Lion&quot; and &quot;the Cowardly Lion&quot;, but I c=
an&#39;t think of how that English distinction, whose semantic import (if t=
here is any) is not at all apparent to me, might be rendered in Lojban. &qu=
ot;Le tolvirnu cinfo&quot; is, of course, not a name; and it is well to rem=
ember that &quot;le&quot; may be glossed &quot;a(n)&quot; just as well as &=
quot;the&quot;, so it&#39;s as if CL were constantly referred to as &quot;a=
 cowardly lion&quot;, which is something nobody but Jaqen H&#39;ghar would =
do. &quot;le&quot; primarily encodes specificity whereas English names (not=
 even those of &quot;the X&quot; sort) don&#39;t.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>It&#39;s interesting to wonder what translation would have been suita=
ble had the original not been a name, and if instead the character were sim=
ply always referred to as &quot;the cowardly lion&quot;: the main semantic =
ingredient contributed by the &quot;the&quot; then would be the definitenes=
s. &quot;lo bi&#39;u nai tolvirnu cinfo&quot; captures the definiteness but=
 of course foregrounds it too much, and probably &quot;lo tolvirnu cinfo&qu=
ot; would be the best rendition.</div><div><br></div><div>What motivated me=
 to make my original response was not just that &quot;le tolvirnu cinfo&quo=
t; is very inferior to &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot; as a rendition of the =
English but also that it was a change inflicted on somebody else&#39;s tran=
slation and furthermore was inflicted on it as if it were a correction rath=
er than an incorrection.</div><div><br></div><div>--And.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>la b=
remenli<br><br>On Monday, November 27, 2017 at 2:20:30 AM UTC-8, And Rosta =
wrote:<span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;=
margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div><br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 26 Nov 2017 16:36,  &=
lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">vpbr...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribut=
ion"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>One substantive global kind of change wa=
s made.<br>Among all the uses of &quot;la&quot;, there were many cases wher=
e it is followed by a verb phrase, and where the expression is not at all a=
 name, but a description, for example &quot;la tolvirnu cinfo&quot;.<br>All=
 such non-names got &quot;la&quot; replaced with &quot;le&quot;.<br></div><=
/blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That looks a deleterious change, unless post-x=
orlo &quot;le&quot; has been completely redefined from what it formerly was=
. The original &quot;la&quot; captures properly the English, whereas semitr=
aditional &quot;le&quot; does not at all. (By &quot;semitraditional&quot; I=
 mean to exclude the habitual solecistic misuse that prevailed in early Loj=
ban writing, where &quot;le&quot; was used as the default gadri, with silli=
nesses such as &quot;le nu&quot;.)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">--And.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
lockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@<wbr>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div><div id=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40B=
B-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
	<tr>
        <td style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href=3D"http://www.avg=
.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campa=
ign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"ht=
tps://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png" al=
t=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29" style=3D"width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a>=
</td>
		<td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free. <a href=
=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3D=
link&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail" target=3D"_bla=
nk" style=3D"color:#4453ea">www.avg.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href=3D"#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" heigh=
t=3D"1"></a></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--f403045c3988abae19055f23d523--