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From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:33:52 +0000
Message-ID: <CACf3dPkQquQqcsKRXCCDnQiG5Q-9_HO2OQe3GY=VkL2ET_fX0A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz
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On 2 Dec 2017 02:14, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

And,

Vocatives are used in the text by the characters, but only with cmevla, not
with the descriptive "names".

I grant that some descriptive phrases in English are names, e.g. a pub
named "The Prancing Horse" has a three-word name, starting with "The".
But in English a personal name never starts with "the".
It's "Fast Eddy", "Slim Pickings", "Minnesota Fats", "Deep Throat", etc,
not "The Fast Eddy".


Inherently onomastic nouns like _Eddy_ don't normally occur with _the_ when
not premodified, but nicknames and character names perfectly well can, e.g.
names of professional wrestlers (the Ringmaster, the Iceman, the Great
Kabuki), _the Black Prince_ (i.e. Edward of Woodstock), and so forth.


The fact that the phrases in question are capitalized by the
English-speaking author does not indicate they are names, as we can see by
examining his usage.
Below I quote illustrative examples from the book.
"I am a Woodman, and made of tin." is clearly an indefinite reference, and
it gets capitalized.
Similarly, "a great Lion bounded into the road.", "and another a Lion.", "
"A Lion!" cried the little Queen", "Others of the Monkeys" are indefinite.
The author doesn't use capitals to indicate use of a name, but rather a
reference to a main character, it seems.


It looks like capitalization is here being used both with its semantic
narrowing function, as when in documents internal to a particular bank, it
is referred to as "the Bank", which is tantamount to onomastic function, or
"a Cruel and Unusual Punishment", whose defining criteria are those not of
ordinary English but rather of the US constitution, and as marking the
names of races (as in "a Scot", "a Briton", "a Dwarf"). Not all names are
arbitrary.

When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillation
between "lo" and "la" would be understandable, tho I myself would be
inclined pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion for
using "la" in place of "lo". I suppose it stands to reason that if "lo" may
be used with unarbitrary names then so may "le". In my earlier messages I
had said that "le" seems unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main, but
that presupposes a certain understanding of "le", the logical form of which
makes it pretty much equivalent to "a certain", whereas I suppose that CLL
could be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with "the", tho
in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo "lo" (which
probably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri but
"lo" and "la").

--And.

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On 2 Dec 2017 02:14,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com">v=
pbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=
=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">And,<br><br>Vocatives are used in the text by the =
characters, but only with cmevla, not with the descriptive &quot;names&quot=
;.<br><br>I grant that some descriptive phrases in English are names, e.g. =
a pub named &quot;The Prancing Horse&quot; has a three-word name, starting =
with &quot;The&quot;.<br>But in English a personal name never starts with &=
quot;the&quot;.<br>It&#39;s &quot;Fast Eddy&quot;, &quot;Slim Pickings&quot=
;, &quot;Minnesota Fats&quot;, &quot;Deep Throat&quot;, etc, not &quot;The =
Fast Eddy&quot;.<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Inherently onomastic nouns like _Eddy_ don&#39;=
t normally occur with _the_ when not premodified, but nicknames and charact=
er names perfectly well can, e.g. names of professional wrestlers (the Ring=
master, the Iceman, the Great Kabuki), _the Black Prince_ (i.e. Edward of W=
oodstock), and so forth.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>The fact that the phrases in question are capital=
ized by the English-speaking author does not indicate they are names, as we=
 can see by examining his usage.<br>Below I quote illustrative examples fro=
m the book.<br>&quot;I am a Woodman, and made of tin.&quot; is clearly an i=
ndefinite reference, and it gets capitalized.<br>Similarly, &quot;a great L=
ion bounded into the road.&quot;, &quot;and another a Lion.&quot;, &quot; &=
quot;A Lion!&quot; cried the little Queen&quot;, &quot;Others of the Monkey=
s&quot; are indefinite.<br>The author doesn&#39;t use capitals to indicate =
use of a name, but rather a reference to a main character, it seems.<br></d=
iv></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">It looks like capitalization is here being used both with its semantic=
 narrowing function, as when in documents internal to a particular bank, it=
 is referred to as &quot;the Bank&quot;, which is tantamount to onomastic f=
unction, or &quot;a Cruel and Unusual Punishment&quot;, whose defining crit=
eria are those not of ordinary English but rather of the US constitution, a=
nd as marking the names of races (as in &quot;a Scot&quot;, &quot;a Briton&=
quot;, &quot;a Dwarf&quot;). Not all names are arbitrary.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary=
 name into Lojban, a vacillation between &quot;lo&quot; and &quot;la&quot; =
would be understandable, tho I myself would be inclined pretty much to trea=
t English capitalization as the criterion for using &quot;la&quot; in place=
 of &quot;lo&quot;. I suppose it stands to reason that if &quot;lo&quot; ma=
y be used with unarbitrary names then so may &quot;le&quot;. In my earlier =
messages I had said that &quot;le&quot; seems unsuitable for rendering &quo=
t;the&quot; in the main, but that presupposes a certain understanding of &q=
uot;le&quot;, the logical form of which makes it pretty much equivalent to =
&quot;a certain&quot;, whereas I suppose that CLL could be interpreted in a=
 way that makes it more consistent with &quot;the&quot;, tho in that case I=
 would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo &quot;lo&quot; (which prob=
ably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri but &qu=
ot;lo&quot; and &quot;la&quot;).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">--And.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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