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boundary="----=_Part_3729_1224704868.1512235558205" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.1 X-Spam_score_int: -40 X-Spam_bar: ---- ------=_Part_3729_1224704868.1512235558205 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3730_962410964.1512235558205" ------=_Part_3730_962410964.1512235558205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em s=C3=A1bado, 2 de dezembro de 2017 18:33:56 UTC+3, And Rosta escreveu: > > > > On 2 Dec 2017 02:14, > wrote: > > And, > > Vocatives are used in the text by the characters, but only with cmevla,= =20 > not with the descriptive "names". > > I grant that some descriptive phrases in English are names, e.g. a pub=20 > named "The Prancing Horse" has a three-word name, starting with "The". > But in English a personal name never starts with "the". > It's "Fast Eddy", "Slim Pickings", "Minnesota Fats", "Deep Throat", etc,= =20 > not "The Fast Eddy". > > > Inherently onomastic nouns like _Eddy_ don't normally occur with _the_=20 > when not premodified, but nicknames and character names perfectly well ca= n,=20 > e.g. names of professional wrestlers (the Ringmaster, the Iceman, the Gre= at=20 > Kabuki), _the Black Prince_ (i.e. Edward of Woodstock), and so forth. > > > The fact that the phrases in question are capitalized by the=20 > English-speaking author does not indicate they are names, as we can see b= y=20 > examining his usage. > Below I quote illustrative examples from the book. > "I am a Woodman, and made of tin." is clearly an indefinite reference, an= d=20 > it gets capitalized. > Similarly, "a great Lion bounded into the road.", "and another a Lion.", = "=20 > "A Lion!" cried the little Queen", "Others of the Monkeys" are indefinite= . > The author doesn't use capitals to indicate use of a name, but rather a= =20 > reference to a main character, it seems. > > > It looks like capitalization is here being used both with its semantic=20 > narrowing function, as when in documents internal to a particular bank, i= t=20 > is referred to as "the Bank", which is tantamount to onomastic function, = or=20 > "a Cruel and Unusual Punishment", whose defining criteria are those not o= f=20 > ordinary English but rather of the US constitution, and as marking the=20 > names of races (as in "a Scot", "a Briton", "a Dwarf"). Not all names are= =20 > arbitrary. > > When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillation= =20 > between "lo" and "la" would be understandable, tho I myself would be=20 > inclined pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion for= =20 > using "la" in place of "lo". I suppose it stands to reason that if "lo" m= ay=20 > be used with unarbitrary names then so may "le". In my earlier messages I= =20 > had said that "le" seems unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main, but= =20 > that presupposes a certain understanding of "le", the logical form of whi= ch=20 > makes it pretty much equivalent to "a certain", whereas I suppose that CL= L=20 > could be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with "the", t= ho=20 > in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo "lo" (whic= h=20 > probably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri b= ut=20 > "lo" and "la"). > Didn't you miss the `` The last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla= =E2=80=9D, which=20 indicates that the selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its=20 normal meaning and is being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descr= iptions, =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D=20 descriptions are implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. '' part quoted by la bremenli? It looks consistent across CLL even including vocatives with gadri omitted. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3730_962410964.1512235558205 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Em s=C3=A1bado, 2 de dezembro de 2017 18:33:56 UTC= +3, And Rosta escreveu:


On 2 Dec 2017 02:1= 4, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
And,

Vocatives are used in the text by the characters, bu= t only with cmevla, not with the descriptive "names".

I gr= ant that some descriptive phrases in English are names, e.g. a pub named &q= uot;The Prancing Horse" has a three-word name, starting with "The= ".
But in English a personal name never starts with "the"= .
It's "Fast Eddy", "Slim Pickings", "Minne= sota Fats", "Deep Throat", etc, not "The Fast Eddy"= ;.

Inherently onomastic nouns like _Eddy_ don't normally occ= ur with _the_ when not premodified, but nicknames and character names perfe= ctly well can, e.g. names of professional wrestlers (the Ringmaster, the Ic= eman, the Great Kabuki), _the Black Prince_ (i.e. Edward of Woodstock), and= so forth.


The fact that the phrases = in question are capitalized by the English-speaking author does not indicat= e they are names, as we can see by examining his usage.
Below I quote il= lustrative examples from the book.
"I am a Woodman, and made of tin= ." is clearly an indefinite reference, and it gets capitalized.
Sim= ilarly, "a great Lion bounded into the road.", "and another = a Lion.", " "A Lion!" cried the little Queen", &qu= ot;Others of the Monkeys" are indefinite.
The author doesn't us= e capitals to indicate use of a name, but rather a reference to a main char= acter, it seems.
=
It looks like capitalization is here being used= both with its semantic narrowing function, as when in documents internal t= o a particular bank, it is referred to as "the Bank", which is ta= ntamount to onomastic function, or "a Cruel and Unusual Punishment&quo= t;, whose defining criteria are those not of ordinary English but rather of= the US constitution, and as marking the names of races (as in "a Scot= ", "a Briton", "a Dwarf"). Not all names are arbit= rary.

When rendering the= se sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillation between "lo&qu= ot; and "la" would be understandable, tho I myself would be incli= ned pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion for using = "la" in place of "lo". I suppose it stands to reason th= at if "lo" may be used with unarbitrary names then so may "l= e". In my earlier messages I had said that "le" seems unsuit= able for rendering "the" in the main, but that presupposes a cert= ain understanding of "le", the logical form of which makes it pre= tty much equivalent to "a certain", whereas I suppose that CLL co= uld be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with "the&qu= ot;, tho in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo &qu= ot;lo" (which probably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettis= oning all gadri but "lo" and "la").

Didn't you miss the `` The last descriptor of = this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indicates that the selbri which= follows it has been dissociated from its normal meaning and is being used = as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D des= criptions are implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. ''
part quoted by la bremenli?

It looks consis= tent across CLL even including vocatives with gadri omitted.

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