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From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 18:34:56 +0000
Message-ID: <CACf3dPk6hNL3GY0QByd4J9ren7TehgB2EWRKARKX9zjO1V1z6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz
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On 3 Dec 2017 12:12, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:


2017-12-03 13:49 GMT+03:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>:

>
>
> On 2 Dec 2017 17:26, <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Em s=C3=A1bado, 2 de dezembro de 2017 18:33:56 UTC+3, And Rosta escreveu:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillatio=
n
>> between "lo" and "la" would be understandable, tho I myself would be
>> inclined pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion fo=
r
>> using "la" in place of "lo". I suppose it stands to reason that if "lo" =
may
>> be used with unarbitrary names then so may "le". In my earlier messages =
I
>> had said that "le" seems unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main, but
>> that presupposes a certain understanding of "le", the logical form of wh=
ich
>> makes it pretty much equivalent to "a certain", whereas I suppose that C=
LL
>> could be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with "the", =
tho
>> in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo "lo" (whi=
ch
>> probably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri =
but
>> "lo" and "la").
>>
>
> Didn't you miss the `` The last descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=
=E2=80=9D, which
> indicates that the selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its
> normal meaning and is being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D des=
criptions, =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D
> descriptions are implicitly restricted to those I have in mind. ''
> part quoted by la bremenli?
>
>
> I didn't miss it. CLL is mostly an informal attempt to describe technical
> linguistic notions succinctly to laypeople, so as with most forms of
> communication, but not necessarily the codification of rules and laws, it
> is necessary to read it in the context of what one presumes the author wa=
s
> intending to communicate.
>

Then what does this quote mean? Nothing and should be ignored according to
you?


"Dissociated from its normal meaning" is an informal attempt to describe
the notion "used as a name" succinctly to laypeople. The literal meaning of
the second sentence is fairly self-evident, but makes more sense under the
'is called X' model of the meaning of names.

--And.

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<div dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 Dec 2017 12:12, &quot;Gleki Arxokuna&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_20=
61119864751155702m_-5648540351818568475quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"m_20611198647=
51155702m_-5648540351818568475elided-text">2017-12-03 13:49 GMT+03:00 And R=
osta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><span>On 2 Dec 2017 17:26,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my=
.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br type=3D"attribution"></span><blockquote class=3D"m_2061119864751155702=
m_-5648540351818568475m_3558292016811206520m_1606407359589677187quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><span><br><br>Em s=C3=A1bado, 2 de dezembro de 2017 18:33:56 UTC+=
3, And Rosta  escreveu:</span><span><div class=3D"m_2061119864751155702m_-5=
648540351818568475m_3558292016811206520m_1606407359589677187elided-text"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><div><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">When rend=
ering these sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillation between &q=
uot;lo&quot; and &quot;la&quot; would be understandable, tho I myself would=
 be inclined pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion f=
or using &quot;la&quot; in place of &quot;lo&quot;. I suppose it stands to =
reason that if &quot;lo&quot; may be used with unarbitrary names then so ma=
y &quot;le&quot;. In my earlier messages I had said that &quot;le&quot; see=
ms unsuitable for rendering &quot;the&quot; in the main, but that presuppos=
es a certain understanding of &quot;le&quot;, the logical form of which mak=
es it pretty much equivalent to &quot;a certain&quot;, whereas I suppose th=
at CLL could be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with &qu=
ot;the&quot;, tho in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from =
xorlo &quot;lo&quot; (which probably explains why xorlovian apologists favo=
ur jettisoning all gadri but &quot;lo&quot; and &quot;la&quot;).</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Didn&#39;t you miss the `` The last=
 descriptor of this section is =E2=80=9Cla=E2=80=9D, which indicates that t=
he selbri which follows it has been dissociated from its normal meaning and=
 is being used as a name. Like =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D descriptions, =E2=80=9C=
la=E2=80=9D descriptions are implicitly restricted to those I have in mind.=
 &#39;&#39;</div><div>part quoted by la bremenli?</div></span></div></block=
quote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I did=
n&#39;t miss it. CLL is mostly an informal attempt to describe technical li=
nguistic notions succinctly to laypeople, so as with most forms of communic=
ation, but not necessarily the codification of rules and laws, it is necess=
ary to read it in the context of what one presumes the author was intending=
 to communicate.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Then wha=
t does this quote mean? Nothing and should be ignored according to you?</di=
v></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">&quot;Dissociated<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">=C2=
=A0from its normal meaning&quot; is=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:=
sans-serif">an informal attempt to describe the notion &quot;used as a name=
&quot;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">succinctly to lay=
people. The literal meaning of the second sentence is fairly self-evident, =
but makes more sense under the &#39;is called X&#39; model of the meaning o=
f names.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-seri=
f"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif=
">--And.</span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"></div></div>

<p></p>

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