Received: from mail-vk0-f62.google.com ([209.85.213.62]:38334) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eNvUb-000401-1f for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:53:42 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f62.google.com with SMTP id a67sf7969991vkf.5 for ; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:53:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=DKFZWdja9eeuqerpE5Rdv3C1RpArgb8RkAPgIwVKaFQ=; b=e6y+iakKqxbFzbkoDUHjSOPSnW3l8v5u4GWJ2t59l+97ienRifm/9BXiit9atiwLhA tM85tl6T20aoPiNx4S6XMy+3YdUzj0mtJNev6pj4C6vmc2AH4Xx0tT63HkXU5FMoorr+ St8t7Wa7vWDq/UnFbUcZNYaoFpotKVXq09HOQSCrS2Q/LbKNVQ43uG1e8kIDJg5y1xbV xigTm4BKH91ElZzsUn8a71ltO9f2uTxFUVoYZYjvINY0ZFxIbG4AogQO4w8RgPZIOo4/ uCqSkNTLC3ybJsv/QLZWmXnUC10KWEwfiKezNpGqQ67ZTvqmfVb4XAWuMH3Qu0D2QHZY HNTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=DKFZWdja9eeuqerpE5Rdv3C1RpArgb8RkAPgIwVKaFQ=; b=QflnAVW7JZ/TgTCEG1xnSFMCKC2GQsy/p4JHLb+sgjIL2T5yzgQFfIKjMJ0B6HvTcz y5+SGb9UInItRALjSOgbfU7A4ONofLOvdGf4qmKjkHknTdVTHnFBuX2WFpt7AVAbKnUY 19TNnSFUEowuCdrORojgxV9+sjHUou2NIS+mj3TZkT/45K4aMqNRLN2Vq3p5MfsgKIgd DgjldCL7gYAYzlpDONL64XsKRCkn4uDHZx/WEt0IHNIt2AxcTANovE9tfSbHra8v5Mzc NUWnDNw+1G3hUrNFMchrjzfov8Fo3oFjyAGHTI9QHRaBGlHYJHQ0ZGMqM4u2kOAlC5nK sWrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=DKFZWdja9eeuqerpE5Rdv3C1RpArgb8RkAPgIwVKaFQ=; b=QEEVImTxhKultkVbx2mmC8tAZYGkiuYiI1fhsrcNPOmluFKGFWSIDH7wTVS+wrblpr d7bYW3wo2rLzovC58ZvEKjs8Sa8tL620w1tMhGfB1eCBXv36dSWLD4xeDqppqCPIwJVm 224tbiZ1XxGjOj4LfvjOZVz2wP4jU0bbPSx4RJCEaooDoqTnhkpkPmqUwu05r61yMZrx OjLYmQ4UBd3EP4kvbiW0oHMPkXAe+WMOylYANgAePOWIyfkCESLNz1wBAFGbZ5qnAqbM 5+W/c0RRgFUyL6tCDROkHY9NU3jMYA3nbPmZzkVm3MghZ17CbkFn1Q3FmGlLfxq4m4xx cLcg== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLSNjUD42Ovh9dNfaN9wbltSpc4t7mbbvCwqWAoo3Pf0jV0FsKq tRG9LdJNsS9FtfAQ2V1YHfg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovcje34uCAvZr4vWanMBeb45+dAeuBoq0LJ5HgkFSFOzYnG52C8U3hpuHWGvYGtnKubzEX0QQ== X-Received: by 10.31.178.196 with SMTP id b187mr18881vkf.8.1512888814033; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:53:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.31.163.130 with SMTP id m124ls1535487vke.20.gmail; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.147.83 with SMTP id v80mr1760556vkd.0.1512888813256; Sat, 09 Dec 2017 22:53:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 22:53:32 -0800 (PST) From: vpbroman@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <05f77e59-9626-443f-9009-ceef56d074a1@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8929082b-8275-4e7b-b759-939361737a1e@googlegroups.com> <4333e9b5-ac2e-4011-b717-7c98c491b9c1@googlegroups.com> <0600c9fe-3388-4ac0-8967-9c98774082ad@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] The Wizard of Oz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3268_810899611.1512888813064" X-Original-Sender: vpbroman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_3268_810899611.1512888813064 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3269_1256089908.1512888813064" ------=_Part_3269_1256089908.1512888813064 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And Rosta, From your examples, I grant that some personal names start with "The". I agree with you that Capitalization in these phrases in the book serves a= =20 semantic narrowing function like "the Bank", although this is not at all=20 tantamount to onomastic. Your last paragraph I cannot make head nor tail of. A claim that "le" is unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main is clearly= =20 at odds with the grammars I have seen, esp. CLL 6.2 ``and in fact =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D is quite close in meaning to English= =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D. '' The phrase "a certain" can be appropriate for the first reference to=20 something definite with "le", but not to later references to the same=20 thing, where we would still use "le" and "the". The xorlo definitional difference between "le" and "la" depends pretty much= =20 on the difference between "cmene" and "skicu do". A cmene depends critically on an act of naming, with or without any=20 reference to the meaning of the selbri used as name. The ve skicu depends only on the meaning of the selbri and on the context. In the book phrases there is abundant evidence that the ve skicu is=20 essential, and no evidence of any act of naming other than the evidence of= =20 capitalization, which we seem to agree means something else here. I am trying to stand squarely in the CLL+BPFK mainstream here, and I'm not= =20 sure that that is your goal here. If you have some additional evidence against "le" to bring up, I'm all ears= . Vincent Broman, la bremenli On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 7:33:56 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote: > > > > On 2 Dec 2017 02:14, > wrote: > > And, > > Vocatives are used in the text by the characters, but only with cmevla,= =20 > not with the descriptive "names". > > I grant that some descriptive phrases in English are names, e.g. a pub=20 > named "The Prancing Horse" has a three-word name, starting with "The". > But in English a personal name never starts with "the". > It's "Fast Eddy", "Slim Pickings", "Minnesota Fats", "Deep Throat", etc,= =20 > not "The Fast Eddy". > > > Inherently onomastic nouns like _Eddy_ don't normally occur with _the_=20 > when not premodified, but nicknames and character names perfectly well ca= n,=20 > e.g. names of professional wrestlers (the Ringmaster, the Iceman, the Gre= at=20 > Kabuki), _the Black Prince_ (i.e. Edward of Woodstock), and so forth. > > > The fact that the phrases in question are capitalized by the=20 > English-speaking author does not indicate they are names, as we can see b= y=20 > examining his usage. > Below I quote illustrative examples from the book. > "I am a Woodman, and made of tin." is clearly an indefinite reference, an= d=20 > it gets capitalized. > Similarly, "a great Lion bounded into the road.", "and another a Lion.", = "=20 > "A Lion!" cried the little Queen", "Others of the Monkeys" are indefinite= . > The author doesn't use capitals to indicate use of a name, but rather a= =20 > reference to a main character, it seems. > > > It looks like capitalization is here being used both with its semantic=20 > narrowing function, as when in documents internal to a particular bank, i= t=20 > is referred to as "the Bank", which is tantamount to onomastic function, = or=20 > "a Cruel and Unusual Punishment", whose defining criteria are those not o= f=20 > ordinary English but rather of the US constitution, and as marking the=20 > names of races (as in "a Scot", "a Briton", "a Dwarf"). Not all names are= =20 > arbitrary. > > When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary name into Lojban, a vacillation= =20 > between "lo" and "la" would be understandable, tho I myself would be=20 > inclined pretty much to treat English capitalization as the criterion for= =20 > using "la" in place of "lo". I suppose it stands to reason that if "lo" m= ay=20 > be used with unarbitrary names then so may "le". In my earlier messages I= =20 > had said that "le" seems unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main, but= =20 > that presupposes a certain understanding of "le", the logical form of whi= ch=20 > makes it pretty much equivalent to "a certain", whereas I suppose that CL= L=20 > could be interpreted in a way that makes it more consistent with "the", t= ho=20 > in that case I would struggle to see how it differs from xorlo "lo" (whic= h=20 > probably explains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri b= ut=20 > "lo" and "la"). > > --And. > > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3269_1256089908.1512888813064 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
And Rosta,

From your examples, I grant that some pe= rsonal names start with "The".
I agree with you that Capitaliz= ation in these phrases in the book serves a semantic narrowing function lik= e "the Bank", although this is not at all tantamount to onomastic= .

Your last paragraph I cannot make head nor tail of.
A claim tha= t "le" is unsuitable for rendering "the" in the main is= clearly at odds with the grammars I have seen, esp. CLL 6.2

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 ``and in fact =E2=80=9Cle=E2=80=9D is quite close in meaning t= o English =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D. ''

The phrase "a certa= in" can be appropriate for the first reference to something definite w= ith "le", but not to later references to the same thing, where we= would still use "le" and "the".

The xorlo defin= itional difference between "le" and "la" depends pretty= much on the difference between "cmene" and "skicu do".=
A cmene depends critically on an act of naming, with or without any ref= erence to the meaning of the selbri used as name.
The ve skicu depends o= nly on the meaning of the selbri and on the context.
In the book phrases= there is abundant evidence that the ve skicu is essential, and no evidence= of any act of naming other than the evidence of capitalization, which we s= eem to agree means something else here.

I am trying to stand squarel= y in the CLL+BPFK mainstream here, and I'm not sure that that is your g= oal here.
If you have some additional evidence against "le" to= bring up, I'm all ears.

Vincent Broman, la bremenli


= On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 7:33:56 AM UTC-8, And Rosta wrote:


On 2 Dec 2017 02:14, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wro= te:
And,

Vocatives= are used in the text by the characters, but only with cmevla, not with the= descriptive "names".

I grant that some descriptive phrase= s in English are names, e.g. a pub named "The Prancing Horse" has= a three-word name, starting with "The".
But in English a pers= onal name never starts with "the".
It's "Fast Eddy&qu= ot;, "Slim Pickings", "Minnesota Fats", "Deep Thro= at", etc, not "The Fast Eddy".
<= /div>

Inherently onomast= ic nouns like _Eddy_ don't normally occur with _the_ when not premodifi= ed, but nicknames and character names perfectly well can, e.g. names of pro= fessional wrestlers (the Ringmaster, the Iceman, the Great Kabuki), _the Bl= ack Prince_ (i.e. Edward of Woodstock), and so forth.


The fact that the phrases in question are capitalized by t= he English-speaking author does not indicate they are names, as we can see = by examining his usage.
Below I quote illustrative examples from the boo= k.
"I am a Woodman, and made of tin." is clearly an indefinite= reference, and it gets capitalized.
Similarly, "a great Lion bound= ed into the road.", "and another a Lion.", " "A Li= on!" cried the little Queen", "Others of the Monkeys" a= re indefinite.
The author doesn't use capitals to indicate use of a = name, but rather a reference to a main character, it seems.

It l= ooks like capitalization is here being used both with its semantic narrowin= g function, as when in documents internal to a particular bank, it is refer= red to as "the Bank", which is tantamount to onomastic function, = or "a Cruel and Unusual Punishment", whose defining criteria are = those not of ordinary English but rather of the US constitution, and as mar= king the names of races (as in "a Scot", "a Briton", &q= uot;a Dwarf"). Not all names are arbitrary.
When rendering these sorts of unarbitrary name int= o Lojban, a vacillation between "lo" and "la" would be = understandable, tho I myself would be inclined pretty much to treat English= capitalization as the criterion for using "la" in place of "= ;lo". I suppose it stands to reason that if "lo" may be used= with unarbitrary names then so may "le". In my earlier messages = I had said that "le" seems unsuitable for rendering "the&quo= t; in the main, but that presupposes a certain understanding of "le&qu= ot;, the logical form of which makes it pretty much equivalent to "a c= ertain", whereas I suppose that CLL could be interpreted in a way that= makes it more consistent with "the", tho in that case I would st= ruggle to see how it differs from xorlo "lo" (which probably expl= ains why xorlovian apologists favour jettisoning all gadri but "lo&quo= t; and "la").

= --And.




--
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