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From: Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
Thread-Topic: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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My apologies for the confusion. I tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or =
Timothy) but that doesn't make it easily searchable (and the name doesn't L=
ojbanise that well anyway), so I'll try to keep with the name I have on my =
email client.


I think karis was referring to this email (included below)? I meant to cont=
inue my input into the discussion but time escaped me this year!


Hope this helps,

Timothy

________________________________
From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Timoth=
y Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban

"You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will not =
be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have=
 a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.

I don't know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface level,=
 seems similar to the history of C++, which I am familiar with.
By and large, new features are added to the C++ language, but every version=
 is backwards-compatible<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibili=
ty> with older versions (and almost entirely compatible with its predecesso=
r, C).
An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler =
will always work with old code.

Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and th=
ey are not considered standard C++), but there is always a standard/"strict=
" mode that can be enabled. Most good features that compilers introduce hav=
e been added to the official version, perhaps changed in a way to integrate=
 them better.

This is what I think Lojban should be like.

I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible.


> "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...),

I do not want there to be "jbo_A", "jbo_B", "jbo_C"... that are all incompa=
tible.

I do want "jbo_1", "jbo_2", "jbo_3"..., where it's a sequential chronology =
and each is a more improved (but backwards-compatible) version.

A tool could explicitly support "jbo_2" and it would implicitly support "jb=
o_1". If a tool just says it supports "jbo", it would be presumed to suppor=
t the latest.


> But this group ("committee"?) should accept the fact that language will e=
volve, whether they like it or not.

I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by backwar=
ds-compatible design and not evolution via drift.

C++ does not at all "evolve" like a natural language and I don't think Lojb=
an should, either. Because C++ has maintained a centralised standard and co=
ntinued to update, I think it possible for Lojban to do so.


> What is clear, however, is that people don't want to use CLL Lojban (desp=
ite the fact that it is still the most thoroughly documented version).

I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I se=
e the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility rea=
sons mentioned above.

I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new lea=
rners are likely to intuit that it's intrinsically better to choose the "la=
test version", not knowing that learning the modern versions entails embrac=
ing a schism.

> To be frank, I feel a bit betrayed. I feel bad because my hope was that L=
ojban was more that just an experiment. Someone, please, prove me it is...

This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet (al=
though I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban).

> I just don't want to spend time learning things if they would be thrown a=
way in a few months/years

> sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. H=
ow do you change something and then make it the same as it was before?

I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for Lojb=
an to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in other =
ways, such as adoption).


> E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.

It's not just about learning, it's about effort invested in writing tools, =
texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera).
It's about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not be s=
ubject to further fiddling.

Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will
- waste invested time in the older version
- waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc)
- alienate those who wasted their time/money
- introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!)

(Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced, in=
stead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and k=
eeping CLL-{le} as the default?)

As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes =
to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;)


"Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fully usab=
le language of the modern world"
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make backwards-co=
mpatible changes, then I can personally say I'll be happy to resume devotin=
g time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban's usefulness as an unambiguous=
 language is so important to me.

It doesn't have to be "perfect" or "better", it just has to be unambiguous =
and complete.


I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance surrounding=
 it, to reunite it.


Thanks for reading,

mi'e la timoteios.

________________________________
From: lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of gryphk=
at@gmail.com <gryphkat@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban

WOW! Timoteos states _exactly_ what I believe is the _best_ path for lojban=
,and quite clearly. I have said this before and hope it receives more posit=
ive attention this time because of the venue and clarity.

This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite bei=
ng told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped wo=
rking on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism.

.karis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font=
-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir=3D"ltr">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">My apologies for the confusion. I=
 tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or Timothy) but that doesn't make it=
 easily searchable (and the name doesn't Lojbanise that well anyway), so I'=
ll try to keep with the name I have
 on my email client.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I think karis was referring to th=
is email (included below)? I meant to continue my input into the discussion=
 but time escaped me this year!</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hope this helps,</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Timothy<br>
</p>
<br>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> lojban@googlegroups=
.com &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of Timothy Lawrence &lt;timo=
thy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><i>&quot;You can learn the language described here with assurance that=
 it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters.&quot;</i>=
<br>
- Complete Lojban Language <a previewremoved=3D"true" id=3D"LPlnk252822" hr=
ef=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/" class=3D"x_OWAAutoLink">
http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/</a> <br>
<br>
I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have=
 a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.<br>
<br>
I don't know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface level,=
 seems similar to the history of C&#43;&#43;, which I am familiar with.<br>
By and large, new features are added to the C&#43;&#43; language, but every=
 version is <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility=
" class=3D"x_OWAAutoLink">
backwards-compatible</a> with older versions (and almost entirely compatibl=
e with its predecessor, C).<br>
An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler =
will always work with old code.<br>
<br>
Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and th=
ey are not considered standard C&#43;&#43;), but there is always a standard=
/&quot;strict&quot; mode that can be enabled. Most good features that compi=
lers introduce have been added to the official version,
 perhaps changed in a way to integrate them better.<br>
<br>
This is what I think Lojban should be like.<br>
<br>
<u>I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible.</u><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">&quot;jbo_*&quot; (imagine &=
quot;jbo_FR&quot;, &quot;jbo_EN&quot;, &quot;jbo_CA&quot;...),</span></b><b=
r>
<br>
I do not want there to be &quot;jbo_A&quot;, &quot;jbo_B&quot;, &quot;jbo_C=
&quot;... that are all incompatible.<br>
<br>
I do want &quot;jbo_1&quot;, &quot;jbo_2&quot;, &quot;jbo_3&quot;..., where=
 it's a sequential chronology and each is a more improved (but backwards-co=
mpatible) version.<br>
<br>
A tool could explicitly support &quot;jbo_2&quot; and it would implicitly s=
upport &quot;jbo_1&quot;. If a tool just says it supports &quot;jbo&quot;, =
it would be presumed to support the latest.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">But this group (&quot;commit=
tee&quot;?) should accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they =
like it or not.</span></b><br>
<br>
I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by backwar=
ds-compatible design and
<i>not</i> evolution via drift.<br>
<br>
C&#43;&#43; does not at all &quot;evolve&quot; like a natural language and =
I don't think Lojban should, either. Because C&#43;&#43; has maintained a c=
entralised standard and continued to update, I think it possible for Lojban=
 to do so.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">What is clear, however, is t=
hat people don't want to use CLL Lojban (despite the fact that it is still =
the most thoroughly documented version).</span></b><br>
<br>
I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I se=
e the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility rea=
sons mentioned above.<br>
<br>
I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new lea=
rners are likely to intuit that it's intrinsically better to choose the &qu=
ot;latest version&quot;, not knowing that learning the modern versions enta=
ils embracing a schism.<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">To be frank, I feel a bit be=
trayed. I feel bad because my hope was that Lojban was more that just an ex=
periment. Someone, please, prove me it is...</span></b><br>
<br>
This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet (al=
though I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban).<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">I just don't want to spend t=
ime learning things if they would be thrown away in a few months/years</spa=
n></b><br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">sykynder: You mention re-int=
egrating forks back into the core language. How do you change something and=
 then make it the same as it was before?</span></b><br>
<br>
I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for Lojb=
an to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in other =
ways, such as adoption).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">E.g. learning a revised mean=
ing {lo} is no big deal.</span></b><br>
<br>
It's not just about learning, it's about effort invested in writing tools, =
texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera).<br>
It's about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not be s=
ubject to further fiddling.<br>
<br>
Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will<br>
- waste invested time in the older version<br>
- waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc)<br>
- alienate those who wasted their time/money<br>
- introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!)<br>
<br>
(Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced, in=
stead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and k=
eeping CLL-{le} as the default?)<br>
<br>
As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes =
to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<i>&quot;Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fu=
lly usable language of the modern world&quot;</i><br>
- Complete Lojban Language <a previewremoved=3D"true" id=3D"LPlnk766371" hr=
ef=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/" class=3D"x_OWAAutoLink">
http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/</a> <br>
<br>
If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make backwards-co=
mpatible changes, then I can personally say I'll be happy to resume devotin=
g time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban's usefulness as an unambiguous=
 language is so important to me.<br>
<br>
It doesn't have to be &quot;perfect&quot; or &quot;better&quot;, it just ha=
s to be unambiguous and complete.<br>
<br>
<br>
I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance surrounding=
 it, to reunite it.</div>
<br>
<p>Thanks for reading,<br>
</p>
<br>
<span>mi'e la timoteios.</span><br>
<br>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=
=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> lojban@googlegroups=
.com &lt;lojban@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of gryphkat@gmail.com &lt;gr=
yphkat@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText">WOW! Timoteos states _exactly_ what I believe is t=
he _best_ path for lojban,and quite clearly. I have said this before and ho=
pe it receives more positive attention this time because of the venue and c=
larity.<br>
<br>
This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite bei=
ng told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped wo=
rking on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism.
<br>
<br>
.karis. <br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban&#43;unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<br>
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s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
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s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div>
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