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[104.47.117.89]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 63si133786qkq.2.2017.12.28.21.18.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 28 Dec 2017 21:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.117.89 as permitted sender) client-ip=104.47.117.89; Received: from SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.169.170.140) by SY3PR01MB0875.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.169.170.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.345.14; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:18:05 +0000 Received: from SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([10.169.170.140]) by SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com ([10.169.170.140]) with mapi id 15.20.0302.017; Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:18:04 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban Thread-Topic: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban Thread-Index: AQHTVnFaqkLkbB88ekaaL0OcLgq6XKMI4NQXgEoiLoCABt3tF4AAMlSAgAACoWc= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 05:18:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <6ab2b9c0-560a-409f-8ec5-c3f8eaa09041@googlegroups.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [182.239.174.199] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;SY3PR01MB0875;7:6m/Ag68sRrjfF4r8GY9hwg2w7TKX5Km/C2dZbSJxUqPgPVQWaonP5LGRZediBMBHoM7UitPKlbDnEEJp1a8KD51g6/74ym6IEoL8eOv9lFDWZzfe0c5ycQFYuwUnWGqNQG+SzqvUXJXCDs0v0CbVtVKsoC+A2ThuiSCUqqsezsXDNMPxE4F4rBKeQGCS14a8+blBhlrHba7e+i2YzHNu126JG4iaYGmtmMI50QR7ibe1ip37u74JQF2pJXe6OAHf x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; 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dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_bar: ---- --_000_SY3PR01MB0873024206868E1EBE7AA82DEB050SY3PR01MB0873ausp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. There appear to be two groups/demographics: those who want an unamb= iguous, centrally-defined, off-the-shelf language (group A) and those who w= ant a better, more efficient language (group B). I have nothing against people making backwards-incompatible changes, if the= y call it a Lojban-derived language rather than Lojban itself*. Calling the= m the same name brings in all the versioning issues I mentioned below, then= the users of both group A and B get confused. *Or Lojban 1 and Lojban 2, similar to how Python 2 and Python 3 are incompa= tible - but as long as it's a fundamental and obvious demarkation. If group A works on "finishing" Lojban, and group B works on a Lojban-inspi= red rework, and someone makes a tool to translate between the two languages= (which is possible because both are unambiguous), then the word definition= work done by group A is still helpful for group B. Growing the user base i= n group A will generate more data that can be used by group B, too. I am part of group A. I just want to use the language and not have differen= t versions interfere with the unambiguity of what I produce. I think these groups can coexist without problem, if managed and differenti= ated correctly :) Hope this helps, Timothy ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of Morphe= meAddict Sent: Friday, 29 December 2017 2:47 PM To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban While backwards-compatibility is important to some people, it is not so imp= ortant to others. I'd rather see a much improved version, usually done by s= implification, that wasn't backwards-compatible than to maintain backwards-= compatibility and lose the opportunity for a (much) better language. stevo [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim= ated-no-repeat-v1.gif] Virus-free. www.avast.com On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Timothy Lawrence > wrote: My apologies for the confusion. I tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or = Timothy) but that doesn't make it easily searchable (and the name doesn't L= ojbanise that well anyway), so I'll try to keep with the name I have on my = email client. I think karis was referring to this email (included below)? I meant to cont= inue my input into the discussion but time escaped me this year! Hope this helps, Timothy ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com > on behalf of Timothy Lawrence = > Sent: Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban "You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will not = be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters." - Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/ I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have= a central, singular version to stay unambiguous. I don't know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface level,= seems similar to the history of C++, which I am familiar with. By and large, new features are added to the C++ language, but every version= is backwards-compatible with older versions (and almost entirely compatible with its predecesso= r, C). An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler = will always work with old code. Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and th= ey are not considered standard C++), but there is always a standard/"strict= " mode that can be enabled. Most good features that compilers introduce hav= e been added to the official version, perhaps changed in a way to integrate= them better. This is what I think Lojban should be like. I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible. > "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), I do not want there to be "jbo_A", "jbo_B", "jbo_C"... that are all incompa= tible. I do want "jbo_1", "jbo_2", "jbo_3"..., where it's a sequential chronology = and each is a more improved (but backwards-compatible) version. A tool could explicitly support "jbo_2" and it would implicitly support "jb= o_1". If a tool just says it supports "jbo", it would be presumed to suppor= t the latest. > But this group ("committee"?) should accept the fact that language will e= volve, whether they like it or not. I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by backwar= ds-compatible design and not evolution via drift. C++ does not at all "evolve" like a natural language and I don't think Lojb= an should, either. Because C++ has maintained a centralised standard and co= ntinued to update, I think it possible for Lojban to do so. > What is clear, however, is that people don't want to use CLL Lojban (desp= ite the fact that it is still the most thoroughly documented version). I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I se= e the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility rea= sons mentioned above. I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new lea= rners are likely to intuit that it's intrinsically better to choose the "la= test version", not knowing that learning the modern versions entails embrac= ing a schism. > To be frank, I feel a bit betrayed. I feel bad because my hope was that L= ojban was more that just an experiment. Someone, please, prove me it is... This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet (al= though I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban). > I just don't want to spend time learning things if they would be thrown a= way in a few months/years > sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. H= ow do you change something and then make it the same as it was before? I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for Lojb= an to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in other = ways, such as adoption). > E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal. It's not just about learning, it's about effort invested in writing tools, = texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera). It's about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not be s= ubject to further fiddling. Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will - waste invested time in the older version - waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc) - alienate those who wasted their time/money - introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!) (Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced, in= stead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and k= eeping CLL-{le} as the default?) As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes = to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;) "Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fully usab= le language of the modern world" - Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/ If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make backwards-co= mpatible changes, then I can personally say I'll be happy to resume devotin= g time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban's usefulness as an unambiguous= language is so important to me. It doesn't have to be "perfect" or "better", it just has to be unambiguous = and complete. I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance surrounding= it, to reunite it. Thanks for reading, mi'e la timoteios. ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com > on behalf of gryphkat@gmail.co= m = > Sent: Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban WOW! Timoteos states _exactly_ what I believe is the _best_ path for lojban= ,and quite clearly. I have said this before and hope it receives more posit= ive attention this time because of the venue and clarity. This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite bei= ng told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped wo= rking on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism. .karis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_SY3PR01MB0873024206868E1EBE7AA82DEB050SY3PR01MB0873ausp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agreed. There appear to be two gr= oups/demographics: those who want an unambiguous, centrally-defined, off-th= e-shelf language (group A) and those who want a better, more efficient lang= uage (group B).


I have nothing against people mak= ing backwards-incompatible changes, if they call it a Lojban-derived langua= ge rather than Lojban itself*. Calling them the same name brings in all the= versioning issues I mentioned below, then the users of both group A and B get confused.


*Or Lojban 1 and Lojban 2, simila= r to how Python 2 and Python 3 are incompatible - but as long as it's a fun= damental and obvious demarkation.


If group A works on "finishi= ng" Lojban, and group B works on a Lojban-inspired rework, and someone= makes a tool to translate between the two languages (which is possible bec= ause both are unambiguous), then the word definition work done by group A is still helpful for group B. Growing the user base i= n group A will generate more data that can be used by group B, too.


I am part of group A. I just want= to use the language and not have different versions interfere with the una= mbiguity of what I produce.


I think these groups can coexist = without problem, if managed and differentiated correctly :)


Hope this helps,

Timothy



From: lojban@googlegroups= .com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of MorphemeAddict <lytles= w@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 29 December 2017 2:47 PM
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
 
= While backwards-compatibility is important to some people, it is not so imp= ortant to others. I'd rather see a much improved version, usually done by s= implification, that wasn't backwards-compatible than to maintain backwards-compatibility and lose the opportunity for a (m= uch) better language. 
=
= stevo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Timothy Lawre= nce <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
My apologies for the confusion. = I tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or Timothy) but that doesn't make i= t easily searchable (and the name doesn't Lojbanise that well anyway), so I= 'll try to keep with the name I have on my email client.


I think karis was referring to t= his email (included below)? I meant to continue my input into the discussio= n but time escaped me this year!


Hope this helps,

Timothy



From: lojban@googleg= roups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Timothy Lawrence <timothy= .lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
Sent: Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
 
"You can learn the language described here with assurance that= it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."=
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have= a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.

I don't know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface level,= seems similar to the history of C++, which I am familiar with.
By and large, new features are added to the C++ language, but every= version is backwards-compatible with older versions (and almost entirely compatibl= e with its predecessor, C).
An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler = will always work with old code.

Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and th= ey are not considered standard C++), but there is always a standard= /"strict" mode that can be enabled. Most good features that compi= lers introduce have been added to the official version, perhaps changed in a way to integrate them better.

This is what I think Lojban should be like.

I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible.



> "jbo_*" (imagine &= quot;jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...),
I do not want there to be "jbo_A", "jbo_B", "jbo_C= "... that are all incompatible.

I do want "jbo_1", "jbo_2", "jbo_3"..., where= it's a sequential chronology and each is a more improved (but backwards-co= mpatible) version.

A tool could explicitly support "jbo_2" and it would implicitly s= upport "jbo_1". If a tool just says it supports "jbo", = it would be presumed to support the latest.



> But this group ("commit= tee"?) should accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they = like it or not.

I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by backwar= ds-compatible design and not evolution via drift.

C++ does not at all "evolve" like a natural language and = I don't think Lojban should, either. Because C++ has maintained a c= entralised standard and continued to update, I think it possible for Lojban= to do so.



> What is clear, however, is t= hat people don't want to use CLL Lojban (despite the fact that it is still = the most thoroughly documented version).

I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I se= e the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility rea= sons mentioned above.

I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new lea= rners are likely to intuit that it's intrinsically better to choose the &qu= ot;latest version", not knowing that learning the modern versions enta= ils embracing a schism.

> To be frank, I feel a bit be= trayed. I feel bad because my hope was that Lojban was more that just an ex= periment. Someone, please, prove me it is...

This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet (al= though I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban).

> I just don't want to spend t= ime learning things if they would be thrown away in a few months/years

> sykynder: You mention re-int= egrating forks back into the core language. How do you change something and= then make it the same as it was before?

I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for Lojb= an to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in other = ways, such as adoption).



> E.g. learning a revised mean= ing {lo} is no big deal.

It's not just about learning, it's about effort invested in writing tools, = texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera).
It's about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not be s= ubject to further fiddling.

Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will
- waste invested time in the older version
- waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc)
- alienate those who wasted their time/money
- introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!)

(Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced, in= stead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and k= eeping CLL-{le} as the default?)

As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes = to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;)



"Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fu= lly usable language of the modern world"
- Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/

If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make backwards-co= mpatible changes, then I can personally say I'll be happy to resume devotin= g time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban's usefulness as an unambiguous= language is so important to me.

It doesn't have to be "perfect" or "better", it just ha= s to be unambiguous and complete.


I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance surrounding= it, to reunite it.

Thanks for reading,


mi'e la timoteios.


From: lojban@googleg= roups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of gryphkat@gmail.com<= /a> <gryphkat@gm= ail.com>
Sent: Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
 
WOW! Timoteos states _exact= ly_ what I believe is the _best_ path for lojban,and quite clearly. I have = said this before and hope it receives more positive attention this time bec= ause of the venue and clarity.

This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite bei= ng told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped wo= rking on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism.

.karis.

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