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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 01:21:32 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkSo31SPvzwtfDqwpmQyJAx8J+yoS933R3+szxBLoSqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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   Ah, okay, the conversation forked, somehow, and the threads broke.  Now
I do see the message.

   I too am group A, as folks know, although I haven't been very active, so
don't feel I should get a vote.  (Although I still have on my plate writing
in (CLL) lojban the third  story in the Terry the Tiger saga, "Terry the
Tiger and the Birthday Gift" (the second story, "Terry the Tiger and the
Big-Boy Bed" wasn't one of my favorites creations, and will probably be
skipped forever)

   Of course, even in the olden days there have been backwards-incompatible
forks.  Specifically, the great rafsi shift.

              --gejyspa


On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Timothy Lawrence <
timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

> Agreed. There appear to be two groups/demographics: those who want an
> unambiguous, centrally-defined, off-the-shelf language (group A) and those
> who want a better, more efficient language (group B).
>
>
> I have nothing against people making backwards-incompatible changes, if
> they call it a Lojban-derived language rather than Lojban itself*. Calling
> them the same name brings in all the versioning issues I mentioned below,
> then the users of both group A and B get confused.
>
>
> *Or Lojban 1 and Lojban 2, similar to how Python 2 and Python 3 are
> incompatible - but as long as it's a fundamental and obvious demarkation.
>
>
> If group A works on "finishing" Lojban, and group B works on a
> Lojban-inspired rework, and someone makes a tool to translate between the
> two languages (which is possible because both are unambiguous), then the
> word definition work done by group A is still helpful for group B. Growing
> the user base in group A will generate more data that can be used by group
> B, too.
>
>
> I am part of group A. I just want to use the language and not have
> different versions interfere with the unambiguity of what I produce.
>
>
> I think these groups can coexist without problem, if managed and
> differentiated correctly :)
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Timothy
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of
> MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, 29 December 2017 2:47 PM
> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
>
> While backwards-compatibility is important to some people, it is not so
> important to others. I'd rather see a much improved version, usually done
> by simplification, that wasn't backwards-compatible than to maintain
> backwards-compatibility and lose the opportunity for a (much) better
> language.
>
> stevo
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_2019012095123844470_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Timothy Lawrence <
> timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> My apologies for the confusion. I tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or
> Timothy) but that doesn't make it easily searchable (and the name doesn't
> Lojbanise that well anyway), so I'll try to keep with the name I have on my
> email client.
>
>
> I think karis was referring to this email (included below)? I meant to
> continue my input into the discussion but time escaped me this year!
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Timothy
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of
> Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM
> *To:* lojban
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
>
> *"You can learn the language described here with assurance that it will
> not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters."*
> - Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/
>
> I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to
> have a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.
>
> I don't know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface
> level, seems similar to the history of C++, which I am familiar with.
> By and large, new features are added to the C++ language, but every
> version is backwards-compatible
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility> with older
> versions (and almost entirely compatible with its predecessor, C).
> An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler
> will always work with old code.
>
> Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and
> they are not considered standard C++), but there is always a
> standard/"strict" mode that can be enabled. Most good features that
> compilers introduce have been added to the official version, perhaps
> changed in a way to integrate them better.
>
> This is what I think Lojban should be like.
>
> *I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible.*
>
>
>
> *> "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...),*
>
> I do not want there to be "jbo_A", "jbo_B", "jbo_C"... that are all
> incompatible.
>
> I do want "jbo_1", "jbo_2", "jbo_3"..., where it's a sequential chronology
> and each is a more improved (but backwards-compatible) version.
>
> A tool could explicitly support "jbo_2" and it would implicitly support
> "jbo_1". If a tool just says it supports "jbo", it would be presumed to
> support the latest.
>
>
>
> *> But this group ("committee"?) should accept the fact that language will
> evolve, whether they like it or not.*
>
> I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by
> backwards-compatible design and *not* evolution via drift.
>
> C++ does not at all "evolve" like a natural language and I don't think
> Lojban should, either. Because C++ has maintained a centralised standard
> and continued to update, I think it possible for Lojban to do so.
>
>
>
> *> What is clear, however, is that people don't want to use CLL Lojban
> (despite the fact that it is still the most thoroughly documented version).*
>
> I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I
> see the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility
> reasons mentioned above.
>
> I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new
> learners are likely to intuit that it's intrinsically better to choose the
> "latest version", not knowing that learning the modern versions entails
> embracing a schism.
>
> *> To be frank, I feel a bit betrayed. I feel bad because my hope was that
> Lojban was more that just an experiment. Someone, please, prove me it is...*
>
> This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet
> (although I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban).
>
> *> I just don't want to spend time learning things if they would be thrown
> away in a few months/years*
>
> *> sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language.
> How do you change something and then make it the same as it was before?*
>
> I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for
> Lojban to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in
> other ways, such as adoption).
>
>
>
> *> E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.*
>
> It's not just about learning, it's about effort invested in writing tools,
> texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera).
> It's about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not be
> subject to further fiddling.
>
> Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will
> - waste invested time in the older version
> - waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc)
> - alienate those who wasted their time/money
> - introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!)
>
> (Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced,
> instead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and
> keeping CLL-{le} as the default?)
>
> As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes
> to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;)
>
>
>
> *"Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fully
> usable language of the modern world"*
> - Complete Lojban Language http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/
>
> If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make
> backwards-compatible changes, then I can personally say I'll be happy to
> resume devoting time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban's usefulness as
> an unambiguous language is so important to me.
>
> It doesn't have to be "perfect" or "better", it just has to be unambiguous
> and complete.
>
>
> I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance
> surrounding it, to reunite it.
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> mi'e la timoteios.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* lojban@googlegroups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of
> gryphkat@gmail.com <gryphkat@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM
> *To:* lojban
> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
>
> WOW! Timoteos states _exactly_ what I believe is the _best_ path for
> lojban,and quite clearly. I have said this before and hope it receives more
> positive attention this time because of the venue and clarity.
>
> This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite
> being told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped
> working on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism.
>
> .karis.
>
> --
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>
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>
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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--f403045ea6d4366704056174a738
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Ah, okay, the conversation forked, somehow, a=
nd the threads broke.=C2=A0 Now I do see the message.<div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I too am group A, as folks know, although I haven&#39;t been v=
ery active, so don&#39;t feel I should get a vote.=C2=A0 (Although I still =
have on my plate writing in (CLL) lojban the third=C2=A0 story in the Terry=
 the Tiger saga, &quot;Terry the Tiger and the Birthday Gift&quot; (the sec=
ond story, &quot;Terry the Tiger and the Big-Boy Bed&quot; wasn&#39;t one o=
f my favorites creations, and will probably be skipped forever)</div><div><=
br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Of course, even in the olden days there have bee=
n backwards-incompatible forks.=C2=A0 Specifically, the great rafsi shift.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=
-gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Timothy Lawrence <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au" targ=
et=3D"_blank">timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:10=
pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Agreed. There appear to be two gr=
oups/demographics: those who want an unambiguous, centrally-defined, off-th=
e-shelf language (group A) and those who want a better, more efficient lang=
uage
<span></span>(group B)<span></span><span></span>.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I have nothing against people mak=
ing backwards-incompatible changes, if they call it a Lojban-derived langua=
ge rather than Lojban itself*. Calling them the same name brings in all the=
 versioning issues I mentioned below,
 then the users of both group A and B<span></span> get confused.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">*Or Lojban 1 and Lojban 2, simila=
r to how Python 2 and Python 3 are incompatible - but as long as it&#39;s a=
 fundamental and obvious demarkation.<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">If group A works on &quot;finishi=
ng&quot; Lojban, and group B works on a Lojban-inspired rework, and someone=
 makes a tool to translate between the two languages (which is possible bec=
ause both are unambiguous), then the word definition
 work done by group A is still helpful for group B. Growing the user base i=
n group A will generate more data that can be used by group B, too.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I am part of group A. I just want=
 to use the language and not have different versions interfere with the una=
mbiguity of what I produce.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I think these groups can coexist =
without problem, if managed and differentiated correctly :)<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hope this helps,</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Timothy<br>
</p>
<br>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googleg=
roups.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on behalf of MorphemeAddict &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 29 December 2017 2:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">loj=
ban@googlegroups.com</a><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</div></div></font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:co=
urier new,monospace">While backwards-compatibility is important to some peo=
ple, it is not so important to others. I&#39;d rather see a much improved v=
ersion, usually done by simplification, that wasn&#39;t backwards-compatibl=
e
 than to maintain backwards-compatibility and lose the opportunity for a (m=
uch) better language.=C2=A0</div>
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:co=
urier new,monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:co=
urier new,monospace">stevo</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br=
>
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
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<tr>
<td style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/=
sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-e=
mail&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dicon" target=3D"_blank"><img =
alt=3D"" style=3D"width:46px;height:29px" height=3D"29" width=3D"46" src=3D=
"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim=
ated-no-repeat-v1.gif"></a></td>
<td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font=
-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">
Virus-free. <a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&a=
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<a href=3D"#m_2019012095123844470_x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" w=
idth=3D"1" height=3D"1"></a></div>
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 8=
:02 PM, Timothy Lawrence <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au" target=3D"_blank=
">timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.<wbr>edu.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618divtagdefaultwrapper=
" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:10pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif">
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">My apologies for the confusion. I=
 tried to Lojbanise my name (Timotheos or Timothy) but that doesn&#39;t mak=
e it easily searchable (and the name doesn&#39;t Lojbanise that well anyway=
), so I&#39;ll try to keep with the name I have
 on my email client.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I think karis was referring to th=
is email (included below)? I meant to continue my input into the discussion=
 but time escaped me this year!</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Hope this helps,</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Timothy<br>
</p>
<br>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618divRplyFwdMsg" dir=
=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=
=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>
<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googleg=
roups.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on behalf of Timothy Lawrence &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au" target=3D"_blank">timothy=
.lawrence@connect.qut.<wbr>edu.au</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 7 November 2017 11:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div><i>&quot;You can learn the language described here with assurance that=
 it will not be subject to further fiddling by language-meisters.&quot;</i>=
<br>
- Complete Lojban Language <a id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_28327862937366=
50618LPlnk252822" href=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/" class=3D"m_2019=
012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618x_OWAAutoLink" target=3D"_blank">
http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/<wbr>2/</a> <br>
<br>
I only use CLL Lojban. I believe that an unambiguous language needs to have=
 a central, singular version to stay unambiguous.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t know much about the history of OpenGL but it, from a surface le=
vel, seems similar to the history of C++, which I am familiar with.<br>
By and large, new features are added to the C++ language, but every version=
 is <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility" class=
=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618x_OWAAutoLink" target=3D"_b=
lank">
backwards-compatible</a> with older versions (and almost entirely compatibl=
e with its predecessor, C).<br>
An older compiler might choke on new language features, but a new compiler =
will always work with old code.<br>
<br>
Compiler vendors may introduce their own language features as forks (and th=
ey are not considered standard C++), but there is always a standard/&quot;s=
trict&quot; mode that can be enabled. Most good features that compilers int=
roduce have been added to the official version,
 perhaps changed in a way to integrate them better.<br>
<br>
This is what I think Lojban should be like.<br>
<br>
<u>I want all new / official Lojban versions to be CLL-compatible.</u><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">&quot;jbo_*&quot; (imagine &=
quot;jbo_FR&quot;, &quot;jbo_EN&quot;, &quot;jbo_CA&quot;...),</span></b><b=
r>
<br>
I do not want there to be &quot;jbo_A&quot;, &quot;jbo_B&quot;, &quot;jbo_C=
&quot;... that are all incompatible.<br>
<br>
I do want &quot;jbo_1&quot;, &quot;jbo_2&quot;, &quot;jbo_3&quot;..., where=
 it&#39;s a sequential chronology and each is a more improved (but backward=
s-compatible) version.<br>
<br>
A tool could explicitly support &quot;jbo_2&quot; and it would implicitly s=
upport &quot;jbo_1&quot;. If a tool just says it supports &quot;jbo&quot;, =
it would be presumed to support the latest.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">But this group (&quot;commit=
tee&quot;?) should accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they =
like it or not.</span></b><br>
<br>
I hope that this means that they accept the language can change, by backwar=
ds-compatible design and
<i>not</i> evolution via drift.<br>
<br>
C++ does not at all &quot;evolve&quot; like a natural language and I don=
9;t think Lojban should, either. Because C++ has maintained a centralised s=
tandard and continued to update, I think it possible for Lojban to do so.<b=
r>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">What is clear, however, is t=
hat people don&#39;t want to use CLL Lojban (despite the fact that it is st=
ill the most thoroughly documented version).</span></b><br>
<br>
I do. I think most people want to use the latest version of something. I se=
e the CLL Lojban as the latest version, for the backwards-compatibility rea=
sons mentioned above.<br>
<br>
I have seen CLL-incompatible versions advertised on the website and new lea=
rners are likely to intuit that it&#39;s intrinsically better to choose the=
 &quot;latest version&quot;, not knowing that learning the modern versions =
entails embracing a schism.<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">To be frank, I feel a bit be=
trayed. I feel bad because my hope was that Lojban was more that just an ex=
periment. Someone, please, prove me it is...</span></b><br>
<br>
This is so true for me, and one of the reasons that I became more quiet (al=
though I am writing an unannounced novel that contains CLL Lojban).<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">I just don&#39;t want to spe=
nd time learning things if they would be thrown away in a few months/years<=
/span></b><br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">sykynder: You mention re-int=
egrating forks back into the core language. How do you change something and=
 then make it the same as it was before?</span></b><br>
<br>
I believe all official Lojban changes must be backwards-compatible for Lojb=
an to succeed in its goal of being unambiguous (let alone succeed in other =
ways, such as adoption).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>&gt; <span style=3D"color:rgb(117,123,128)">E.g. learning a revised mean=
ing {lo} is no big deal.</span></b><br>
<br>
It&#39;s not just about learning, it&#39;s about effort invested in writing=
 tools, texts, chatbots and parsers (et cetera).<br>
It&#39;s about breaking that promise in the CLL that the language will not =
be subject to further fiddling.<br>
<br>
Introducing changes that break Lojban compatibility will<br>
- waste invested time in the older version<br>
- waste invested money in buying the older CLL (etc)<br>
- alienate those who wasted their time/money<br>
- introduce more ambiguity (The Lojban version changes the meaning!!)<br>
<br>
(Why did CLL-{le} become modern-{lo} and the modern-{le} get introduced, in=
stead of just introducing the new {lo} to mean what modern-{le} means and k=
eeping CLL-{le} as the default?)<br>
<br>
As learning a revised meaning is no big deal, simply redoing these changes =
to be compatible with CLL Lojban should be no big deal ;)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<i>&quot;Lojban does not yet have nearly the vocabulary it needs to be a fu=
lly usable language of the modern world&quot;</i><br>
- Complete Lojban Language <a id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_28327862937366=
50618LPlnk766371" href=3D"http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/2/" class=3D"m_2019=
012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618x_OWAAutoLink" target=3D"_blank">
http://lojban.github.io/cll/1/<wbr>2/</a> <br>
<br>
If we can agree to move forward using CLL Lojban and only make backwards-co=
mpatible changes, then I can personally say I&#39;ll be happy to resume dev=
oting time, energy and money into Lojban. Lojban&#39;s usefulness as an una=
mbiguous language is so important to me.<br>
<br>
It doesn&#39;t have to be &quot;perfect&quot; or &quot;better&quot;, it jus=
t has to be unambiguous and complete.<br>
<br>
<br>
I want to help complete Lojban, and any processes of governance surrounding=
 it, to reunite it.</div>
<br>
<p>Thanks for reading,<br>
</p>
<br>
<span>mi&#39;e la timoteios.</span><br>
<br>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618divRplyFwdMsg" dir=
=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=
=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>
<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googleg=
roups.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:gryphkat@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gryphkat@gmail.com<=
/a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gryphkat@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gryphkat@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 25 December 2017 2:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> lojban<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_h5">
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618BodyFragment"><fo=
nt size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<div class=3D"m_2019012095123844470x_m_2832786293736650618PlainText">WOW! T=
imoteos states _exactly_ what I believe is the _best_ path for lojban,and q=
uite clearly. I have said this before and hope it receives more positive at=
tention this time because of the venue and clarity.<br>
<br>
This lack of backwards compatability I have run into sometimes, despite bei=
ng told that everyone would understand me, is one major reason I stopped wo=
rking on learning learning lojban about the time of the first schism.
<br>
<br>
.karis. <br>
<br>
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