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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 14:13:34 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: use-mention errors
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 After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and its importance,=
 I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the =E2=80=9880s and =
=E2=80=9890s) still make the mistake regularly. =C2=A0The acid test seems t=
o be in the frame =E2=80=9CMy name is...=E2=80=9D, where =E2=80=9CMy name i=
s John=E2=80=9D is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we pass over the numbe=
r of times that they include =E2=80=98la=E2=80=99 in the answer). =C2=A0I s=
uspect that almost no one still falls for =E2=80=9Ccats contain four letter=
s=E2=80=9D, but more complex cases -- just when making the distinction is i=
mportant -- are probably still messed up as often as not.

    On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 7:32:53 AM CST, <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.co=
m> wrote: =20
=20
=20

Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26:51 UTC+3, stevo escreveu:
Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors?

From my experience newcomers quickly stop making them once they learn what =
{lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signatures of verbs.
And in general most errors come from insufficient knowledge of vocabulary.
This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in CLL.
=C2=A0
 I understand that the reason for the distinction between "lo prami" and "z=
o prami" is to avoid precisely this kind of problem, but is it working?=C2=
=A0
stevo

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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
            <div>After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and=
 its importance, I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the =
=E2=80=9880s and =E2=80=9890s) still make the mistake regularly. &nbsp;The =
acid test seems to be in the frame =E2=80=9CMy name is...=E2=80=9D, where =
=E2=80=9CMy name is John=E2=80=9D is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we p=
ass over the number of times that they include =E2=80=98la=E2=80=99 in the =
answer). &nbsp;I suspect that almost no one still falls for =E2=80=9Ccats c=
ontain four letters=E2=80=9D, but more complex cases -- just when making th=
e distinction is important -- are probably still messed up as often as not.=
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_7261084828" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 7:32:53 AM CST,  &lt;g=
leki.is.my.name@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div id=3D"yiv9890106604"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26=
:51 UTC+3, stevo  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"yiv9890106604gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;">D=
o speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors?</div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>From my experience newcomers quickly stop m=
aking them once they learn what {lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signature=
s of verbs.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>And in general most errors come fr=
om insufficient knowledge of vocabulary.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div><div>This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in C=
LL.</div></div><div class=3D"yiv9890106604yqt0155100661" id=3D"yiv989010660=
4yqtfd40263"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"yiv9890106604gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-=
family:courier new, monospace;"> I understand that the reason for the disti=
nction between "lo prami" and "zo prami" is to avoid precisely this kind of=
 problem, but is it working?&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier n=
ew, monospace;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:courier =
new, monospace;">stevo</div><div><br clear=3D"none">
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de;"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1"=
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=3D"width:46px;min-height:29px;"></a></td><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" s=
tyle=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-fami=
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div>
</blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"yiv9890106604yqt0155100661" id=3D"yi=
v9890106604yqtfd61514">

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