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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 17:39:35 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+gFCciFiHE2THK5TZKnbui4FqzgZe_gwfBoAwTogWVR+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: use-mention errors
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2018-01-28 17:13 GMT+03:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com>:

> After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and its importance=
,
> I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the =E2=80=9880s and =
=E2=80=9890s)
> still make the mistake regularly.
>

Well, by Lojbanists I meant only people who practice text conversations in
IRC chat. No stats from me (no parsers to detect wrong typing/nonsense yet)


>  The acid test seems to be in the frame =E2=80=9CMy name is...=E2=80=9D, =
where =E2=80=9CMy name is
> John=E2=80=9D is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we pass over the numbe=
r of times
> that they include =E2=80=98la=E2=80=99 in the answer).  I suspect that al=
most no one still
> falls for =E2=80=9Ccats contain four letters=E2=80=9D,
>

What did it suppose to mean?


> but more complex cases -- just when making the distinction is important -=
-
> are probably still messed up as often as not.
>
>
> On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 7:32:53 AM CST, <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26:51 UTC+3, stevo escreveu:
>
> Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors?
>
>
> From my experience newcomers quickly stop making them once they learn wha=
t
> {lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signatures of verbs.
> And in general most errors come from insufficient knowledge of vocabulary=
.
>
> This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in CLL.
>
>
>
> I understand that the reason for the distinction between "lo prami" and
> "zo prami" is to avoid precisely this kind of problem, but is it working?
>
> stevo
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon> Virus-free.
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>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2018-01-28 17:13 GMT+03:00 &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:13px"><div></div>
            <div>After 60 some years of trying to teach the distinction and=
 its importance, I am willing to be that Lojbanist today (as back in the =
=E2=80=9880s and =E2=80=9890s) still make the mistake regularly.</div></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, by Lojbanists I meant only pe=
ople who practice text conversations in IRC chat. No stats from me (no pars=
ers to detect wrong typing/nonsense yet)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,=
Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div> =C2=A0The acid test seems to be in t=
he frame =E2=80=9CMy name is...=E2=80=9D, where =E2=80=9CMy name is John=E2=
=80=9D is the usual (i.e., wrong) response (we pass over the number of time=
s that they include =E2=80=98la=E2=80=99 in the answer).=C2=A0 I suspect th=
at almost no one still falls for =E2=80=9Ccats contain four letters=E2=80=
=9D,</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What did it suppose =
to mean?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"=
><div> but more complex cases -- just when making the distinction is import=
ant -- are probably still messed up as often as not.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"m_1547273986659208904yahoo_quoted_7261084828" class=
=3D"m_1547273986659208904yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetic=
a,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a"><span class=3D"">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Sunday, January 28, 2018, 7:32:53 AM CST,  &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.=
name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    </span><div><div id=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv98901066=
04"><div><span class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none">Em domingo, 28 de janeiro de 2018 14:26:51 UTC+3, stevo  escreveu:<bl=
ockquote class=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv9890106604gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">Do speakers o=
f Lojban commit use-mention errors?</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>From my experience newcomers quickly stop making them =
once they learn what {lo} and {zo} mean and learn type signatures of verbs.=
<br clear=3D"none"></div><div>And in general most errors come from insuffic=
ient knowledge of vocabulary.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><div>=
This error is also relevant to raising, which is dealt with in CLL.</div></=
div><div class=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv9890106604yqt0155100661" id=3D"m_=
1547273986659208904yiv9890106604yqtfd40263"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv9890106604gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace"> I understand that the reason for the distinction between &quot;lo pr=
ami&quot; and &quot;zo prami&quot; is to avoid precisely this kind of probl=
em, but is it working?=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,mon=
ospace"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,mono=
space">stevo</div><div><br clear=3D"none">
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" =
rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a rel=3D"nofollow" sha=
pe=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;=
utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&am=
p;utm_term=3Dicon" target=3D"_blank"><img alt=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"2=
9" style=3D"width:46px;min-height:29px"></a></td><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=
=3D"1" style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;f=
ont-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free. <a rel=
=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_me=
dium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_con=
tent=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dlink" style=3D"color:#4453ea" target=3D"_blan=
k">www.avast.com</a>
		</td></tr></tbody></table><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect"></a></div></=
div>
</blockquote></div></div></span><div class=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv98901=
06604yqt0155100661" id=3D"m_1547273986659208904yiv9890106604yqtfd61514"><sp=
an class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

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