Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::235;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAHiXx=Pfa82oc0a=jgqT-jHrHkOG1cbr8YTp4FN-KxuzQEtZHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHiXx=OjsDpwgofWwTWj4p0WbyFUamNmTsTUTOzqs1Aa=C=mnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKOEKkQtySwNdjuSVXt=ZbA7=vCTfhRkOhkNRNOo1v+Fnkowqw@mail.gmail.com> <CAHiXx=Pfa82oc0a=jgqT-jHrHkOG1cbr8YTp4FN-KxuzQEtZHw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:10:36 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkScJBB090C47rCoUaUU40o6WcuhvyW035h85m-r2sZHBA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] use-mention errors
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045fb4fea8b6440563feefbd"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.5
X-Spam_score_int: -14
X-Spam_bar: -

--f403045fb4fea8b6440563feefbd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

  A funny textbook example of use-mention error came up today in English
(well, Yeshivish) in our Talmud study.  We are studying the tractate of
"Avodah Zorah" ("Idol Worship"), and our rabbi said, "Sometimes, when you
feel excitement building in you and you don't know what it is, it's 'Avodah
Zorah'" (https://youtu.be/zbg4xenUuuM?t=1048) He immediately retracted it,
because although he meant "di'inaiku do cinmo lo banro terfra be ne'i do ku
gi'e  na djuno lo du'u by du makau .i by nu co'e la'e lu nu malceisni
cesri'isi'a li'u " but it sounded like he meant "li'o by za'i malceisni
cesri'isi'a"

               --gejyspa


On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:19 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just watched Daniel Dennett's video on reverse-engineering religion, and
> he mentions use-mention errors a lot toward the end of it. I knew that "zo"
> was meant to avoid this problem, and I was curious how well it works.
>
> According to gleki (talking about only fluent speakers on IRC), it works
> pretty well.
> According to John (talking more generally), maybe it hasn't seen its full
> potential.
>
> stevo
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 7:11 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>    AFAIK, I never commit use-mention errors in lojban.  Where have you
>> seen otherwise?
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:26 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Do speakers of Lojban commit use-mention errors? I understand that the
>>> reason for the distinction between "lo prami" and "zo prami" is to avoid
>>> precisely this kind of problem, but is it working?
>>>
>>> stevo
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
>>> www.avast.com
>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>>> <#m_-3469612977072485121_m_-2201188269926137722_m_-5044624211989899210_m_-8403255904962934270_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--f403045fb4fea8b6440563feefbd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 A funny textbook example of use-mention error came =
up today in English (well, Yeshivish) in our Talmud study.=C2=A0 We are stu=
dying the tractate of &quot;Avodah Zorah&quot; (&quot;Idol Worship&quot;), =
and our rabbi said, &quot;Sometimes, when you feel excitement building in y=
ou and you don&#39;t know what it is, it&#39;s &#39;Avodah Zorah&#39;&quot;=
 (<a href=3D"https://youtu.be/zbg4xenUuuM?t=3D1048">https://youtu.be/zbg4xe=
nUuuM?t=3D1048</a>)=C2=A0He immediately retracted it, because although he m=
eant &quot;di&#39;inaiku do cinmo lo banro terfra be ne&#39;i do ku gi&#39;=
e=C2=A0 na djuno lo du&#39;u by du makau .i by nu co&#39;e la&#39;e lu nu m=
alceisni cesri&#39;isi&#39;a li&#39;u &quot; but it sounded like he meant &=
quot;li&#39;o by za&#39;i malceisni cesri&#39;isi&#39;a&quot;<div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div=
><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0<div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:19 PM, MorphemeAddict=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">lytlesw@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courie=
r new,monospace">I just watched Daniel Dennett&#39;s video on reverse-engin=
eering religion, and he mentions use-mention errors a lot toward the end of=
 it. I knew that &quot;zo&quot; was meant to avoid this problem, and I was =
curious how well it works.=C2=A0<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">According to gleki (talking=
 about only fluent speakers on IRC), it works pretty well.=C2=A0</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">Accordi=
ng to John (talking more generally), maybe it hasn&#39;t seen its full pote=
ntial.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier=
 new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:courier new,monospace">stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 7:11 AM, Michael Turniansky=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0AFAIK, I never commit use-mention e=
rrors in lojban.=C2=A0 Where have you seen otherwise?</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_-34696129770=
72485121h5">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 6:26 AM, MorphemeAddict <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytlesw@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div class=3D"m_-3469612977072485121h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">Do speakers of Lo=
jban commit use-mention errors? I understand that the reason for the distin=
ction between &quot;lo prami&quot; and &quot;zo prami&quot; is to avoid pre=
cisely this kind of problem, but is it working?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo</div=
><div id=3D"m_-3469612977072485121m_-2201188269926137722m_-5044624211989899=
210m_-8403255904962934270DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<span class=3D"m_-3469612977072485121m_-2201188269926137722HOEnZb"><font co=
lor=3D"#888888">
	</font></span><span class=3D"m_-3469612977072485121m_-2201188269926137722H=
OEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span><table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
	<tbody><tr>
        <td style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href=3D"https://www.av=
ast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=
=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dicon" target=3D"_blan=
k"><img src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-rou=
nd-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29" st=
yle=3D"width:46px;height:29px"></a></td>
		<td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free. <a href=
=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlin=
k&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dlin=
k" style=3D"color:#4453ea" target=3D"_blank">www.avast.com</a><span class=
=3D"m_-3469612977072485121m_-2201188269926137722HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888=
888">
		</font></span></td></tr></tbody></table><span class=3D"m_-346961297707248=
5121m_-2201188269926137722HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><a href=3D"#m_-34=
69612977072485121_m_-2201188269926137722_m_-5044624211989899210_m_-84032559=
04962934270_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" height=3D"1">=
</a></font></span></div></div></div></div><span class=3D""><span class=3D"m=
_-3469612977072485121HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><span class=3D"m_-3469=
612977072485121m_-2201188269926137722HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroup<wbr>s.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/grou<wbr>p/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/op<wbr>tout</a>.<br>
</font></span></font></span></span></blockquote></div><span class=3D"m_-346=
9612977072485121HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div><sp=
an class=3D""><span class=3D"m_-3469612977072485121HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#=
888888">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroup<wbr>s.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/grou<wbr>p/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/op<wbr>tout</a>.<br>
</font></span></span></blockquote></div><br></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><di=
v class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@<wbr>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--f403045fb4fea8b6440563feefbd--