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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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From: Gregorio Guidi <greg_g@posteo.net>
Message-ID: <cefa7622-9500-114f-953a-323410c667c6@posteo.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 02:36:57 +0100
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On 02/06/2018 03:22 PM, sukender1@gmail.com wrote:
> coi ro do
>
> OPEN ALPHA: A first (public) version of the submission tool is online. 
> Anyone wanting to be a tester can register at 
> lojban-submission.sukender.net 
> <https://lojban-submission.sukender.net> . I will welcome any feedback 
> to help improving it: content, features, issues, etc...
>
> Notes:
>
>   * For now, registering requires administrator approval; this
>     restriction should be removed later. Please be patient after
>     registration! I'll answer as soon as possible.
>   * Site has multi-language support (3 languages for now...) and will
>     try to satisfy your browser's language list. You may change the
>     language whenever you want (there's a language switcher on pages).
>     Please prefer registering your account details in English (switch
>     language for that, if required) so that everyone can understand.
>     Else, you should think about translating your account details in
>     English _*after*_ registration.
>
>
> Thanks for your help!

coi

Since the initial announcement, I didn't see any comments on the mailing 
list on the proposal. Looking for possible explanations according to 
Warnock's dilemma <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma>, I 
can only infer that there is not much interest on the topic, unfortunately.

I am at fault myself because I registered but did not experiment very 
much with the system until now, by I think a few comments are in order...

First, I am really impressed at what you have created based on the 
original discussion and ideas. I can imagine the amount of work you did 
to get the site to the current level... If you have done it all by 
yourself in your spare time, I really envy your programming/web skills. 
Kudos!

About the role that the site can have for the Lojban community, it is 
difficult to make a fair assessment because a tool to organize a 
community is something that presupposes an active, lively community that 
needs to be organized. Sadly, I observe that there is no such community 
at the moment, and there is not much that a tool can do to correct the 
situation.

In the hypothetical case that an active community will spring to life, I 
would say that such a tool would work well and provide a lot of value 
_if_ the community had a strong commitment to the organizational rules 
that are encoded in the tool. On the other hand, I am pessimistic that 
such commitment could be achieved in practice, and I have also some 
reservations on whether it would be actually desirable.

To explain better, let's say the site provides these fundamental 
services (simplifying):
1. A submission/review/commenting system.
2. Management of roles and competences for the users of the system.
3. A workflow and approval system based on voting.

My biggest concern is on point 3: in my experience I have never 
encountered a volunteer-based community that put such a strong emphasis 
on voting as a way to direct the project (I am comparing mainly to the 
innumerable small and large communities about open-source software and 
similar projects, which have the most similarities with Lojban). In 
fact, I consider it a sign of poor health if a community routinely 
resorts to voting. A healthy community should rarely need to vote 
<https://www.slideshare.net/vishnu/how-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your-open-source-project-from-poisonous-people>. 
In my view voting stimulates competitive (as opposed to collaborative) 
behavior and usually obscures the need of having a well-defined vision, 
a limited scope and a coherent design around which consensus-based 
solutions can be found when issues arise.

I see point 2 above (roles and competences) also as being somewhat 
dependent on point 3. It is in a sense a way to mitigate the possible 
shortcomings and manipulation opportunities of the voting system, while 
keeping the voting system itself in place. Is all this complication 
really needed?

About point 1 (submission/review/comment), the system you built is very 
good. Taken by itself, though, it suffers from the competition of 
solutions that have been around a long time and that have explored this 
problem domain (think Github code reviews).

Sorry if my assessment sounds a bit harsh, I might be biased from my 
past experiences. In any case, I hope Lojban can find a way to be better 
organized, whatever the organization will be...

And in the end, you managed to give concrete form to the vision you had 
and build something useful basically from scratch, something that I 
would never have been able to do. So all respect is for you!

TL;DR: The site is extremely well-done and could support a community 
that values voting and user roles as the basis of its organization, but 
I don't believe that Lojban should be such a community.

Gregorio

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/06/2018 03:22 PM,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sukender1@gmail.com">sukender1@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:22c3fb09-3163-444a-be5e-e650e563a39f@googlegroups.com">
      <div dir="ltr">coi ro do
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>OPEN ALPHA: A first (public) version of the submission tool
          is online. Anyone wanting to be a tester can register at <a
            href="https://lojban-submission.sukender.net"
            moz-do-not-send="true">lojban-submission.sukender.net</a> .
          I will welcome any feedback to help improving it: content,
          features, issues, etc...</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Notes:</div>
        <div>
          <ul>
            <li>For now, registering requires administrator approval;
              this restriction should be removed later. Please be
              patient after registration! I'll answer as soon as
              possible.<br>
            </li>
            <li>Site has multi-language support (3 languages for now...)
              and will try to satisfy your browser's language list. You
              may change the language whenever you want (there's a
              language switcher on pages). Please prefer registering
              your account details in English (switch language for that,
              if required) so that everyone can understand. Else, you
              should think about translating your account details in
              English <u><b>after</b></u> registration.</li>
          </ul>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thanks for your help!</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    coi<br>
    <br>
    Since the initial announcement, I didn't see any comments on the
    mailing list on the proposal. Looking for possible explanations
    according to <a moz-do-not-send="true"
      href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma">Warnock's
      dilemma</a>, I can only infer that there is not much interest on
    the topic, unfortunately.<br>
    <br>
    I am at fault myself because I registered but did not experiment
    very much with the system until now, by I think a few comments are
    in order...<br>
    <br>
    First, I am really impressed at what you have created based on the
    original discussion and ideas. I can imagine the amount of work you
    did to get the site to the current level... If you have done it all
    by yourself in your spare time, I really envy your programming/web
    skills. Kudos!<br>
    <br>
    About the role that the site can have for the Lojban community, it
    is difficult to make a fair assessment because a tool to organize a
    community is something that presupposes an active, lively community
    that needs to be organized. Sadly, I observe that there is no such
    community at the moment, and there is not much that a tool can do to
    correct the situation.<br>
    <br>
    In the hypothetical case that an active community will spring to
    life, I would say that such a tool would work well and provide a lot
    of value <u>if</u> the community had a strong commitment to the
    organizational rules that are encoded in the tool. On the other
    hand, I am pessimistic that such commitment could be achieved in
    practice, and I have also some reservations on whether it would be
    actually desirable.<br>
    <br>
    To explain better, let's say the site provides these fundamental
    services (simplifying):<br>
    1. A submission/review/commenting system.<br>
    2. Management of roles and competences for the users of the system.<br>
    3. A workflow and approval system based on voting.<br>
    <br>
    My biggest concern is on point 3: in my experience I have never
    encountered a volunteer-based community that put such a strong
    emphasis on voting as a way to direct the project (I am comparing
    mainly to the innumerable small and large communities about
    open-source software and similar projects, which have the most
    similarities with Lojban). In fact, I consider it a sign of poor
    health if a community routinely resorts to voting. <a
      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.slideshare.net/vishnu/how-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your-open-source-project-from-poisonous-people">A
      healthy community should rarely need to vote</a>. In my view
    voting stimulates competitive (as opposed to collaborative) behavior
    and usually obscures the need of having a well-defined vision, a
    limited scope and a coherent design around which consensus-based
    solutions can be found when issues arise.<br>
    <br>
    I see point 2 above (roles and competences) also as being somewhat
    dependent on point 3. It is in a sense a way to mitigate the
    possible shortcomings and manipulation opportunities of the voting
    system, while keeping the voting system itself in place. Is all this
    complication really needed?<br>
    <br>
    About point 1 (submission/review/comment), the system you built is
    very good. Taken by itself, though, it suffers from the competition
    of solutions that have been around a long time and that have
    explored this problem domain (think Github code reviews).<br>
    <br>
    Sorry if my assessment sounds a bit harsh, I might be biased from my
    past experiences. In any case, I hope Lojban can find a way to be
    better organized, whatever the organization will be...<br>
    <br>
    And in the end, you managed to give concrete form to the vision you
    had and build something useful basically from scratch, something
    that I would never have been able to do. So all respect is for you!<br>
    <br>
    TL;DR: The site is extremely well-done and could support a community
    that values voting and user roles as the basis of its organization,
    but I don't believe that Lojban should be such a community.<br>
    <br>
    Gregorio<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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