Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:56:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: sukender1@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <54bcdf8c-2526-47ad-b7db-39d7a67fe8a2@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <cefa7622-9500-114f-953a-323410c667c6@posteo.net>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com>
 <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com>
 <SY3PR01MB0873C992D556B090F308980EEB510@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <6ab2b9c0-560a-409f-8ec5-c3f8eaa09041@googlegroups.com>
 <SY3PR01MB08735626A69F855470F6FD40EB050@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAHiXx=OOb=3R1V9kL0+1HfWzqgUgaQhWRhe_h7uH7=7nfQvYZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <SY3PR01MB0873024206868E1EBE7AA82DEB050@SY3PR01MB0873.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAKOEKkSo31SPvzwtfDqwpmQyJAx8J+yoS933R3+szxBLoSqzRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <812dfca3-bc7f-40a5-bcb0-8e1a7062e52f@googlegroups.com>
 <22c3fb09-3163-444a-be5e-e650e563a39f@googlegroups.com>
 <cefa7622-9500-114f-953a-323410c667c6@posteo.net>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_12639_1512253479.1522040202050"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.5
X-Spam_score_int: -14
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_12639_1512253479.1522040202050
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_12640_624727911.1522040202050"

------=_Part_12640_624727911.1522040202050
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you very much for your feedback. I prefer 'harsh and true' reviews=20
rather than 'consensual and fake' ones.

I completely agree with you about the fact it supposes an active community=
=20
to work. And this is the main issue, I guess. I fear the non-spreading of=
=20
Lojban, because people may not be active enough to maintain it above a=20
"sustainability" threshold (eventually worsening into fading and decay). I=
=20
just hope I'm wrong.
(Side note: Generally speaking, people I know are not much interested about=
=20
Lojban because... it's not spread enough.)

About Warnock's dilemma, we may *also* infer that the message is rather=20
complex (I mean it requires to be active and interested in multiple=20
topics)... ;) And this goes with what you say about "complication". Is this=
=20
really needed? Well, I bet the answer is "yes, until we find something=20
simpler". Maybe some things are to be improved, to be more "user friendly"?=
=20
I personally think that we may need to add other "tools" in the toolbox.=20
Surely a more general tool (to be defined), to make more people go there &=
=20
make it more popular. But I don't know which. Any idea about a=20
Lojban-related feature that doesn't exist yet somewhere else?

About voting: Yes, I also hope that voting should be "a straightforward=20
administrative validation procedure for 95% of the cases". This is why the=
=20
"final" voting is restricted to a reduced sub-community of "validators". I=
=20
also intentionally tried to mimic the "board"-like voting, without the=20
drawback of a mostly-statically selected sub-community (which may rely on=
=20
inactive members, even if people are nice and willing). But I agree that=20
this may look more like competition than collaboration in some=20
circumstances. Any idea to improve that is welcome :) Maybe adding helpers=
=20
ensuring that decisions are well documented is a good idea?

(BTW, the link you gave makes me think that we will surely have a peaceful=
=20
and non-disturbing community (=3D few risks). Anyway, hostile people should=
=20
be reported and can be banned!)

About the system itself, I don't think there is a real competition with=20
other existing ones, since it is (from my point of view) complementary to=
=20
the others. Do you really think there are some duplicates? Which features=
=20
precisely?

Finally, thank you for compliments about the site and the underlying=20
system. Yes, I did that on my spare time. But don't be fooled: I reused a=
=20
lot of components, and wrote very few "low-level" things by myself.=20
Technically speaking, I used Drupal, many modules, and a little bit of PHP=
=20
& Bash. Time I spent was mostly configuring the whole (server, site,=20
modules...), integrate database schema into the pre-defined tools (somewhat=
=20
difficult sometimes!), prepare "good" queries, fill pages, etc. The only=20
pages I really coded in PHP was admin ones, where I query for invalid or=20
duplicate kudos, and the one that lists inactive accounts and emails them=
=20
(not automated yet). So if kudos for me on that product, then maybe more on=
=20
"adapting to the needs" than on programming/web! ;) But thanks anyway.
If you think this should be extended to some other communities, please tell=
=20
& "advertise". That may be possible to generalize the system.

la .sykynder.

Le samedi 24 mars 2018 02:37:01 UTC+1, Gregorio Guidi a =C3=A9crit :
>
> On 02/06/2018 03:22 PM, suke...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
>
> coi ro do=20
>
> OPEN ALPHA: A first (public) version of the submission tool is online.=20
> Anyone wanting to be a tester can register at=20
> lojban-submission.sukender.net . I will welcome any feedback to help=20
> improving it: content, features, issues, etc...
>
> Notes:
>
>    - For now, registering requires administrator approval; this=20
>    restriction should be removed later. Please be patient after registrat=
ion!=20
>    I'll answer as soon as possible.
>    - Site has multi-language support (3 languages for now...) and will=20
>    try to satisfy your browser's language list. You may change the langua=
ge=20
>    whenever you want (there's a language switcher on pages). Please prefe=
r=20
>    registering your account details in English (switch language for that,=
 if=20
>    required) so that everyone can understand. Else, you should think abou=
t=20
>    translating your account details in English *after* registration.=20
>
>
> Thanks for your help!
>
>
> coi
>
> Since the initial announcement, I didn't see any comments on the mailing=
=20
> list on the proposal. Looking for possible explanations according to Warn=
ock's=20
> dilemma <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma>, I can only=
=20
> infer that there is not much interest on the topic, unfortunately.
>
> I am at fault myself because I registered but did not experiment very muc=
h=20
> with the system until now, by I think a few comments are in order...
>
> First, I am really impressed at what you have created based on the=20
> original discussion and ideas. I can imagine the amount of work you did t=
o=20
> get the site to the current level... If you have done it all by yourself =
in=20
> your spare time, I really envy your programming/web skills. Kudos!
>
> About the role that the site can have for the Lojban community, it is=20
> difficult to make a fair assessment because a tool to organize a communit=
y=20
> is something that presupposes an active, lively community that needs to b=
e=20
> organized. Sadly, I observe that there is no such community at the moment=
,=20
> and there is not much that a tool can do to correct the situation.
>
> In the hypothetical case that an active community will spring to life, I=
=20
> would say that such a tool would work well and provide a lot of value *if=
*=20
> the community had a strong commitment to the organizational rules that ar=
e=20
> encoded in the tool. On the other hand, I am pessimistic that such=20
> commitment could be achieved in practice, and I have also some reservatio=
ns=20
> on whether it would be actually desirable.
>
> To explain better, let's say the site provides these fundamental services=
=20
> (simplifying):
> 1. A submission/review/commenting system.
> 2. Management of roles and competences for the users of the system.
> 3. A workflow and approval system based on voting.
>
> My biggest concern is on point 3: in my experience I have never=20
> encountered a volunteer-based community that put such a strong emphasis o=
n=20
> voting as a way to direct the project (I am comparing mainly to the=20
> innumerable small and large communities about open-source software and=20
> similar projects, which have the most similarities with Lojban). In fact,=
 I=20
> consider it a sign of poor health if a community routinely resorts to=20
> voting. A healthy community should rarely need to vote=20
> <https://www.slideshare.net/vishnu/how-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your=
-open-source-project-from-poisonous-people>.=20
> In my view voting stimulates competitive (as opposed to collaborative)=20
> behavior and usually obscures the need of having a well-defined vision, a=
=20
> limited scope and a coherent design around which consensus-based solution=
s=20
> can be found when issues arise.
>
> I see point 2 above (roles and competences) also as being somewhat=20
> dependent on point 3. It is in a sense a way to mitigate the possible=20
> shortcomings and manipulation opportunities of the voting system, while=
=20
> keeping the voting system itself in place. Is all this complication reall=
y=20
> needed?
>
> About point 1 (submission/review/comment), the system you built is very=
=20
> good. Taken by itself, though, it suffers from the competition of solutio=
ns=20
> that have been around a long time and that have explored this problem=20
> domain (think Github code reviews).
>
> Sorry if my assessment sounds a bit harsh, I might be biased from my past=
=20
> experiences. In any case, I hope Lojban can find a way to be better=20
> organized, whatever the organization will be...
>
> And in the end, you managed to give concrete form to the vision you had=
=20
> and build something useful basically from scratch, something that I would=
=20
> never have been able to do. So all respect is for you!
>
> TL;DR: The site is extremely well-done and could support a community that=
=20
> values voting and user roles as the basis of its organization, but I don'=
t=20
> believe that Lojban should be such a community.
>
> Gregorio
>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_12640_624727911.1522040202050
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you very much for your feedback. I prefer &#39;=
harsh and true&#39; reviews rather than &#39;consensual and fake&#39; ones.=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>I completely agree with you about the fact it=
 supposes an active community to work. And this is the main issue, I guess.=
 I fear the non-spreading of Lojban, because people may not be active enoug=
h to maintain it above a &quot;sustainability&quot; threshold (eventually w=
orsening into fading and decay). I just hope I&#39;m wrong.</div><div>(Side=
 note: Generally speaking, people I know are not much interested about Lojb=
an because... it&#39;s not spread enough.)</div><div><br></div><div>About W=
arnock&#39;s dilemma, we may *also* infer that the message is rather comple=
x (I mean it requires to be active and interested in multiple topics)... ;)=
 And this goes with what you say about &quot;complication&quot;. Is this re=
ally needed? Well, I bet the answer is &quot;yes, until we find something s=
impler&quot;. Maybe some things are to be improved, to be more &quot;user f=
riendly&quot;? I personally think that we may need to add other &quot;tools=
&quot; in the toolbox. Surely a more general tool (to be defined), to make =
more people go there &amp; make it more popular. But I don&#39;t know which=
. Any idea about a Lojban-related feature that doesn&#39;t exist yet somewh=
ere else?</div><div><br></div><div>About voting: Yes, I also hope that voti=
ng should be &quot;a straightforward administrative validation procedure fo=
r 95% of the cases&quot;. This is why the &quot;final&quot; voting is restr=
icted to a reduced sub-community of &quot;validators&quot;. I also intentio=
nally tried to mimic the &quot;board&quot;-like voting, without the drawbac=
k of a mostly-statically selected sub-community (which may rely on inactive=
 members, even if people are nice and willing). But I agree that this may l=
ook more like competition than collaboration in some circumstances. Any ide=
a to improve that is welcome :) Maybe adding helpers ensuring that decision=
s are well documented is a good idea?</div><div><br></div><div>(BTW, the li=
nk you gave makes me think that we will surely have a peaceful and non-dist=
urbing community (=3D few risks). Anyway, hostile people should be reported=
 and can be banned!)</div><div><br></div><div>About the system itself, I do=
n&#39;t think there is a real competition with other existing ones, since i=
t is (from my point of view) complementary to the others. Do you really thi=
nk there are some duplicates? Which features precisely?</div><div><br></div=
><div>Finally, thank you for compliments about the site and the underlying =
system. Yes, I did that on my spare time. But don&#39;t be fooled: I reused=
 a lot of components, and wrote very few &quot;low-level&quot; things by my=
self. Technically speaking, I used Drupal, many modules, and a little bit o=
f PHP &amp; Bash. Time I spent was mostly configuring the whole (server, si=
te, modules...), integrate database schema into the pre-defined tools (some=
what difficult sometimes!), prepare &quot;good&quot; queries, fill pages, e=
tc. The only pages I really coded in PHP was admin ones, where I query for =
invalid or duplicate kudos, and the one that lists inactive accounts and em=
ails them (not automated yet). So if kudos for me on that product, then may=
be more on &quot;adapting to the needs&quot; than on programming/web! ;) Bu=
t thanks anyway.</div><div>If you think this should be extended to some oth=
er communities, please tell &amp; &quot;advertise&quot;. That may be possib=
le to generalize the system.</div><div><br></div><div>la .sykynder.</div><b=
r>Le samedi 24 mars 2018 02:37:01 UTC+1, Gregorio Guidi a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bor=
der-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <div>On 02/06/2018 03:22 PM,
      <a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"j3=
1Rc5YcCAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:=
9;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;"=
>suke...@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">coi ro do
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>OPEN ALPHA: A first (public) version of the submission tool
          is online. Anyone wanting to be a tester can register at <a href=
=3D"https://lojban-submission.sukender.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3=
A%2F%2Flojban-submission.sukender.net\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQ=
jCNGIdCxQhR8Nrzirs-z7Umtd16_hMw&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&=
#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Flojban-submission.sukende=
r.net\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGIdCxQhR8Nrzirs-z7Umtd16_hMw&=
#39;;return true;">lojban-submission.sukender.net</a> .
          I will welcome any feedback to help improving it: content,
          features, issues, etc...</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Notes:</div>
        <div>
          <ul>
            <li>For now, registering requires administrator approval;
              this restriction should be removed later. Please be
              patient after registration! I&#39;ll answer as soon as
              possible.<br>
            </li>
            <li>Site has multi-language support (3 languages for now...)
              and will try to satisfy your browser&#39;s language list. You
              may change the language whenever you want (there&#39;s a
              language switcher on pages). Please prefer registering
              your account details in English (switch language for that,
              if required) so that everyone can understand. Else, you
              should think about translating your account details in
              English <u><b>after</b></u> registration.</li>
          </ul>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thanks for your help!</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    coi<br>
    <br>
    Since the initial announcement, I didn&#39;t see any comments on the
    mailing list on the proposal. Looking for possible explanations
    according to <a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilem=
ma" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http=
s://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWarnock=
%2527s_dilemma\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNF0kc-6SDTycwZazAvZ9S=
nlZ2L8mg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.=
com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWarnock%2527s_dilemma\=
x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNF0kc-6SDTycwZazAvZ9SnlZ2L8mg&#39;;r=
eturn true;">Warnock&#39;s
      dilemma</a>, I can only infer that there is not much interest on
    the topic, unfortunately.<br>
    <br>
    I am at fault myself because I registered but did not experiment
    very much with the system until now, by I think a few comments are
    in order...<br>
    <br>
    First, I am really impressed at what you have created based on the
    original discussion and ideas. I can imagine the amount of work you
    did to get the site to the current level... If you have done it all
    by yourself in your spare time, I really envy your programming/web
    skills. Kudos!<br>
    <br>
    About the role that the site can have for the Lojban community, it
    is difficult to make a fair assessment because a tool to organize a
    community is something that presupposes an active, lively community
    that needs to be organized. Sadly, I observe that there is no such
    community at the moment, and there is not much that a tool can do to
    correct the situation.<br>
    <br>
    In the hypothetical case that an active community will spring to
    life, I would say that such a tool would work well and provide a lot
    of value <u>if</u> the community had a strong commitment to the
    organizational rules that are encoded in the tool. On the other
    hand, I am pessimistic that such commitment could be achieved in
    practice, and I have also some reservations on whether it would be
    actually desirable.<br>
    <br>
    To explain better, let&#39;s say the site provides these fundamental
    services (simplifying):<br>
    1. A submission/review/commenting system.<br>
    2. Management of roles and competences for the users of the system.<br>
    3. A workflow and approval system based on voting.<br>
    <br>
    My biggest concern is on point 3: in my experience I have never
    encountered a volunteer-based community that put such a strong
    emphasis on voting as a way to direct the project (I am comparing
    mainly to the innumerable small and large communities about
    open-source software and similar projects, which have the most
    similarities with Lojban). In fact, I consider it a sign of poor
    health if a community routinely resorts to voting. <a href=3D"https://w=
ww.slideshare.net/vishnu/how-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your-open-source=
-project-from-poisonous-people" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmoused=
own=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.s=
lideshare.net%2Fvishnu%2Fhow-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your-open-source=
-project-from-poisonous-people\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGzM_=
4R8sVtEEXG5hdbH9T9hIMSGw&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;htt=
ps://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.slideshare.net%2Fvishnu%2Fho=
w-to-protect-yourhow-to-protect-your-open-source-project-from-poisonous-peo=
ple\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGzM_4R8sVtEEXG5hdbH9T9hIMSGw=
9;;return true;">A
      healthy community should rarely need to vote</a>. In my view
    voting stimulates competitive (as opposed to collaborative) behavior
    and usually obscures the need of having a well-defined vision, a
    limited scope and a coherent design around which consensus-based
    solutions can be found when issues arise.<br>
    <br>
    I see point 2 above (roles and competences) also as being somewhat
    dependent on point 3. It is in a sense a way to mitigate the
    possible shortcomings and manipulation opportunities of the voting
    system, while keeping the voting system itself in place. Is all this
    complication really needed?<br>
    <br>
    About point 1 (submission/review/comment), the system you built is
    very good. Taken by itself, though, it suffers from the competition
    of solutions that have been around a long time and that have
    explored this problem domain (think Github code reviews).<br>
    <br>
    Sorry if my assessment sounds a bit harsh, I might be biased from my
    past experiences. In any case, I hope Lojban can find a way to be
    better organized, whatever the organization will be...<br>
    <br>
    And in the end, you managed to give concrete form to the vision you
    had and build something useful basically from scratch, something
    that I would never have been able to do. So all respect is for you!<br>
    <br>
    TL;DR: The site is extremely well-done and could support a community
    that values voting and user roles as the basis of its organization,
    but I don&#39;t believe that Lojban should be such a community.<br>
    <br>
    Gregorio<br>
    <br>
  </div>

</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_12640_624727911.1522040202050--

------=_Part_12639_1512253479.1522040202050--