Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 03:21:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <3a2b28b9-840a-48ea-bd6f-9517dddfbcfe@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <199511262038.PAA02535@locke.ccil.org>
References: <199511262038.PAA02535@locke.ccil.org>
Subject: [lojban] Re: gradu
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Em domingo, 26 de novembro de 1995 23:27:17 UTC+3, Jorge Llambias escreveu:
>
> > >        x1 is x2 units (default=1) on scale/property x3
> > >Unfortunately, I can't find a gismu with that structure.
> > He doesn't need the default, and therefore klani has what he needs.
>
> Yes, {klani} is good. Why isn't it worded like all the other
> measure-words? And why isn't 1 the default for its x2, like for all the
> others?
>
> I now think that the place structure of {gradu} is also good, although
> again it is not worded as it should. It belongs with the series:
>
> .....
> kilto   x1 is a thousand of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> xecto   x1 is a hundred of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> dekto   x1 is ten of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> gradu   x1 is a unit of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> decti   x1 is a tenth of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> centi   x1 is a hundredth of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
> milti   x1 is a thousandth of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)
>

And can you please show how each place of gradu and kilto would be filled 
according to this view? 

.....
>
> The current wording makes it difficult to see how well it fits there.
>
> > gradu isn't really a generic unit, though it has probably been used as
> > such.  It was originally meant to be the category containing the units,
> > just as skari contains all the colors.
>
> Yes, the problem seems to be the confusing keywords and that the
> definitions are not worded as for other equivalent concepts. {klani}
> is the generic unit, so it should be worded as such.
>
> > Now with dikyjvo, I think both skari and gradu have trouble being used
> > in lujvo as they were intended (cindu skari would be the color of an
> > oak, but should have the generic colr place struture, and not a
> > derivative of skari's place structure),
>
> The useful gismu for creating colour-words should have the structure
> "x1 has the colour of x2". Then {cindyskari} would indeed mean
> "x1 is oak-coloured".
>
> The x3 and x4 of {skari} are a general problem of many gismu. "under
> conditions" and "to observer" places should not be part of any gismu.
> (Except {vanbi} and {zgana}, of course.)
>
> The x2 of {skari} is hard to understand. What should it be filled with?
> A property? What's the difference between {ta skari le ka blanu} and
> {ta ckaji le ka blanu}?
>
> If {skari} had the right place structure ("x1 is of the colour of x2")
> then {kamska} would mean "x1 is the property of being the colour of x2",
> which is what {se skari} presumably means now.
>
> I propose that the place structure of {skari} be changed to "x1 is of
> the colour of x2", which is much more useful than the current one.
>
> > and maybe Nick needs to include
> > a note about these kinds of words. rango, danlu a nd a few others have
> > this problem too.
>
> {danlu} seems to be perfectly normal, and {rango} is pretty standard too.
> What is the problem with them?
>
> Jorge
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em domingo, 26 de novembro de 1995 23:27:17 UTC+3,=
 Jorge Llambias  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">&gt;=
 &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0x1 is x2 units (default=3D1) on scale/prop=
erty x3<br>&gt; &gt;Unfortunately, I can&#39;t find a gismu with that struc=
ture.<br>&gt; He doesn&#39;t need the default, and therefore klani has what=
 he needs.<p>Yes, {klani} is good. Why isn&#39;t it worded like all the oth=
er<br>measure-words? And why isn&#39;t 1 the default for its x2, like for a=
ll the<br>others?</p><p>I now think that the place structure of {gradu} is =
also good, although<br>again it is not worded as it should. It belongs with=
 the series:</p><p>.....<br>kilto =C2=A0 x1 is a thousand of x2 in dimensio=
n/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>xecto =C2=A0 x1 is a hundred of x2 in dim=
ension/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>dekto =C2=A0 x1 is ten of x2 in dime=
nsion/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>gradu =C2=A0 x1 is a unit of x2 in di=
mension/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>decti =C2=A0 x1 is a tenth of x2 in=
 dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>centi =C2=A0 x1 is a hundredth o=
f x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)<br>milti =C2=A0 x1 is a thou=
sandth of x2 in dimension/aspect x3 (default is units)<br></p></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>And can you please show how each place of gradu and kil=
to would be filled according to this view?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><p>.....</p><p>The current wording m=
akes it difficult to see how well it fits there.</p><p>&gt; gradu isn&#39;t=
 really a generic unit, though it has probably been used as<br>&gt; such. =
=C2=A0It was originally meant to be the category containing the units,<br>&=
gt; just as skari contains all the colors.</p><p>Yes, the problem seems to =
be the confusing keywords and that the<br>definitions are not worded as for=
 other equivalent concepts. {klani}<br>is the generic unit, so it should be=
 worded as such.</p><p>&gt; Now with dikyjvo, I think both skari and gradu =
have trouble being used<br>&gt; in lujvo as they were intended (cindu skari=
 would be the color of an<br>&gt; oak, but should have the generic colr pla=
ce struture, and not a<br>&gt; derivative of skari&#39;s place structure),<=
/p><p>The useful gismu for creating colour-words should have the structure<=
br>&quot;x1 has the colour of x2&quot;. Then {cindyskari} would indeed mean=
<br>&quot;x1 is oak-coloured&quot;.</p><p>The x3 and x4 of {skari} are a ge=
neral problem of many gismu. &quot;under<br>conditions&quot; and &quot;to o=
bserver&quot; places should not be part of any gismu.<br>(Except {vanbi} an=
d {zgana}, of course.)</p><p>The x2 of {skari} is hard to understand. What =
should it be filled with?<br>A property? What&#39;s the difference between =
{ta skari le ka blanu} and<br>{ta ckaji le ka blanu}?</p><p>If {skari} had =
the right place structure (&quot;x1 is of the colour of x2&quot;)<br>then {=
kamska} would mean &quot;x1 is the property of being the colour of x2&quot;=
,<br>which is what {se skari} presumably means now.</p><p>I propose that th=
e place structure of {skari} be changed to &quot;x1 is of<br>the colour of =
x2&quot;, which is much more useful than the current one.</p><p>&gt; and ma=
ybe Nick needs to include<br>&gt; a note about these kinds of words. rango,=
 danlu a nd a few others have<br>&gt; this problem too.</p><p>{danlu} seems=
 to be perfectly normal, and {rango} is pretty standard too.<br>What is the=
 problem with them?</p><p>Jorge</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></=
p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p></b=
lockquote></div>

<p></p>

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