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From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 21:55:52 -0400
Message-ID: <CAOYwWb2jT49EO87iNeAbQsmdi4mXWRf4eGbU8Csshimy6mB7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Glossing
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 5:20 PM Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

>
> > i   lo  bicrbombu  cu  se       bevri      mi o'adai               lo
> mamta  be  mi vau
> > SEP ART bumblebee? SEP PASS.INV-carried-by-me (pride-EMPATH) [-to] ART
> mother-OBJ-me TERMIN
>
>
I am no expert at glossing (far from it), but I think there are some
possible points of confusion here where things are supposed to line up.  I
think hyphens should generally indicate morpheme breaks within words.  Dots
seem to be used when several gloss-components hold together in one
object-language morpheme.  So your gloss ought to be something like:

SEP ART bumblebee SEP PASS.INV carried.by me (pride-EMPATH) [to] ART mother
OBJ me TERMIN


> I think only SEP (separator), TERMIN (terminator) and EMPATH (empathic
> attitudinal) are not in the standard abbreviations list, and the rest
> should be pretty obvious.  I also used the bracketed [-to] which is
> actually part of the gloss of bevri, as symbolized by the hyphen, put in
> a more readable position (5+ place brivla would be even harder to
> express without such readability aids).
>

I like my idea of e.g. VPZ .... VPT because abbreviations like VP are
already widely understood among English-speaking linguists and the -Z...-T
convention (or something like it) can be used to convey the
not-widely-understood functions of these Lojban particles, which IMHO ought
to be one of the points of writing the gloss in the first place.


>
> I don't sense that morphemic glossing necessarily is as comprehensive in
> the structure words as Mike S's attempt provides.  After all, English
> has several kinds of articles and they all probably gloss as ART.  There
> is an abbreviation for "definite" (DEF), but none for "indefinite", two
> of the kinds of articles in English.  But probably if we wanted to
> systematize glossing in Lojban we might invent abbreviations to
> distinguish lo, la, lei, and loi (there is no abbreviation for
> mass-nouns either in the standard list)
>

You can use dots to add features to a gloss.  French "la" might be glossed
as ART.DEF.FEM and Lojban "loi" might be ART.MASS.

mi'e .maik.
mu'o.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 5:20 PM Bo=
b LeChevalier &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">
<br>
&gt; i=C2=A0 =C2=A0lo=C2=A0 bicrbombu=C2=A0 cu=C2=A0 se=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0bevri=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mi o&#39;adai=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lo=C2=A0 mamta=C2=A0 be=C2=A0 mi vau<br>
&gt; SEP ART bumblebee? SEP PASS.INV-carried-by-me (pride-EMPATH) [-to] ART=
 mother-OBJ-me TERMIN<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am no expert at glossing (far from i=
t), but I think there are some possible points of confusion here where thin=
gs are supposed to line up.=C2=A0 I think hyphens should generally indicate=
 morpheme breaks within words.=C2=A0 Dots seem to be used when several glos=
s-components hold together in one object-language morpheme.=C2=A0 So your g=
loss ought to be something like:<br><br>SEP ART bumblebee SEP PASS.INV <a h=
ref=3D"http://carried.by">carried.by</a> me (pride-EMPATH) [to] ART mother =
OBJ me TERMIN</div><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">
I think only SEP (separator), TERMIN (terminator) and EMPATH (empathic <br>
attitudinal) are not in the standard abbreviations list, and the rest <br>
should be pretty obvious.=C2=A0 I also used the bracketed [-to] which is <b=
r>
actually part of the gloss of bevri, as symbolized by the hyphen, put in <b=
r>
a more readable position (5+ place brivla would be even harder to <br>
express without such readability aids).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>I like my idea of e.g. VPZ .... VPT because abbreviations like VP are alre=
ady widely understood among English-speaking linguists and the -Z...-T conv=
ention (or something like it) can be used to convey the not-widely-understo=
od functions of these Lojban particles, which IMHO ought to be one of the p=
oints of writing the gloss in the first place.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I don&#39;t sense that morphemic glossing necessarily is as comprehensive i=
n <br>
the structure words as Mike S&#39;s attempt provides.=C2=A0 After all, Engl=
ish <br>
has several kinds of articles and they all probably gloss as ART.=C2=A0 The=
re <br>
is an abbreviation for &quot;definite&quot; (DEF), but none for &quot;indef=
inite&quot;, two <br>
of the kinds of articles in English.=C2=A0 But probably if we wanted to <br=
>
systematize glossing in Lojban we might invent abbreviations to <br>
distinguish lo, la, lei, and loi (there is no abbreviation for <br>
mass-nouns either in the standard list)<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div><div>You can use dots to add features to a glo=
ss.=C2=A0 French &quot;la&quot; might be glossed as ART.DEF.FEM and Lojban =
&quot;loi&quot; might be ART.MASS.<br><br></div><div>mi&#39;e .maik.<br></d=
iv><div>mu&#39;o.<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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