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From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 10:17:59 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Glossing
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On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 8:02 PM Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> wrote:

> "-r-", which has allomorphs "-n-" and, only in type-3 fu'ivla, "-l-", is
> an
> interfix. It doesn't mean anything; it's required by morphology rules.
>
> Are you suggesting that -r/n- can be used as an interfix outside of type-3
fu'ivla?  Outside of the type-3 use, I have seen syllabic consonants only
*inside* certain marginal fu'ivla shapes.  At any rate, I am not sure that
it is correct to say that these interfixes have no meaning, since there are
two contrastive types (in some positions at least) with obvious differences
in meaning.  A -y- signals that the left-side part is a dependent stem in a
conventional compound, while an -n/r- in type-3 signals an "intra-stem"
relationship in which the left-side is a semantic hint and the right-side
is content.


> Classifiers, in linguistics, are words used with numbers (or, in Apachean
> languages, denoting grouping) to indicate the type of thing counted.
> "bic-" is
> something else.
>

True.  What I was driving at is noun class, but there is no symbol for
that.  I interpret bicr- as something like a noun-class marker.  Not
exactly, of course, since Lojban type-3 prefixes are much more open-class
than attested noun class systems e.g. in Bantu languages and some
Polynesian languages.


>
> > -bombu / "Bombus" or bumblebee
> > cu / *VPZ / verb-phrase-izer
>
> It's the same thing as "i" in Tok Pisin, which is called the predicate
> marker.
>

Looks like PM is the abbreviation for that.


>
> > se / INV / inverse voice
>
> INV2, as there are also te, ve, and xe.
>
> > bevri / carry
> > mi / 1 or 1SG / 1st person or 1st person singular (pragmatically,
> probably
> > sg right?)
>
> I'd say 1SG, as Lojban has 1PL pronouns with clusivity. "mi" can be used
> with
> a plural referent, which means that we all speak as one, or something like
> that.
>

Those are my thoughts too.  It might make sense in corporate prayer, legal
contracts, signed petitions, and the like.  I still tend to think that
pragmatically any plural use of "mi" should be marked as "ro mi" or
something.  The plural meaning is hardly ever needed, and IMHO it's more
confusing (as in these glosses) than helpful to have it hanging around.


>
> > o'a- / proudly
>
> It's not an adverb ("proudly" would modify "carry"). It's an attitudinal,
> and
> should get an abbreviation in caps.
>

Something like proud.ATNL perhaps?


>
> > -dai / OBV / obviate (don't know what else to call this)
>
> I don't either. The obviative marks a third person as being less salient
> than
> another third person. One of "ko'a" and "fo'a" could be considered
> proximate
> and the other obviative.
>

Right, and similarly, -dai marks something that is less salient than the
first person.  Another case where I tried to recycle something out there in
use.


>
> > lo / DET or *NPZ
> > mamta / mother
> > be / INAL / inalienable possession
>
> Inalienable possession is "po'e". "lo citka be lo funduki" does not mean
> "the
> eater inalienably possessed by a hazelnut"; it means "someone who eats a
> hazelnut".


I would not use INAL in all cases of "be".  In the case of citka I'd use DO
(direct object) or something.  However, I do think that the alienability
distinction, as it usually appears in natural languages (e.g. in terms for
kin, body parts, etc.), is nearly always reflected in Lojban place
structures and expressed in the alternation between "pe" and "be". In my
view, inalienable possession is merely a subtype of a much more general
argument/non-argument distinction, whether linguists (or Lojbanists) notice
it or not.

As far as "po'e", it's supposed to be a fall-back in case a Lojban place
structure fails to capture the inalienable possessor of some word in some
culture.  I am not sure how much use it has seen, but I think that if its
function is really needed, it would be more fitting simply to coin a new
word with the desired place structure.  I would say that "be" is the real
inalienable possessor marker in Lojban.


mi'e .maik.
mu'o.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at =
8:02 PM Pierre Abbat &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phma@bezitopo.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">phma@bezitopo.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">&quot;-r-&quot;, which has allomorphs &quot;-n-&quot;=
 and, only in type-3 fu&#39;ivla, &quot;-l-&quot;, is an <br>
interfix. It doesn&#39;t mean anything; it&#39;s required by morphology rul=
es.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>Are you suggesting that -r/n- can be used as an inter=
fix outside of type-3 fu&#39;ivla?=C2=A0 Outside of the type-3 use, I have =
seen syllabic consonants only *inside* certain marginal fu&#39;ivla shapes.=
=C2=A0 At any rate, I am not sure that it is correct to say that these inte=
rfixes have no meaning, since there are two contrastive types (in some posi=
tions at least) with obvious differences in meaning.=C2=A0 A -y- signals th=
at the left-side part is a dependent stem in a conventional compound, while=
 an -n/r- in type-3 signals an &quot;intra-stem&quot; relationship in which=
 the left-side is a semantic hint and the right-side is content. <br></div>=
<div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Classifiers, in linguistics, are words used with numbers (or, in Apachean <=
br>
languages, denoting grouping) to indicate the type of thing counted. &quot;=
bic-&quot; is <br>
something else.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>True.=C2=A0 What I was =
driving at is noun class, but there is no symbol for that.=C2=A0 I interpre=
t bicr- as something like a noun-class marker.=C2=A0 Not exactly, of course=
, since Lojban type-3 prefixes are much more open-class than attested noun =
class systems e.g. in Bantu languages and some Polynesian languages.<br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; -bombu / &quot;Bombus&quot; or bumblebee<br>
&gt; cu / *VPZ / verb-phrase-izer<br>
<br>
It&#39;s the same thing as &quot;i&quot; in Tok Pisin, which is called the =
predicate marker.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Looks like PM is the =
abbreviation for that.=C2=A0 <br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; se / INV / inverse voice<br>
<br>
INV2, as there are also te, ve, and xe.<br>
<br>
&gt; bevri / carry<br>
&gt; mi / 1 or 1SG / 1st person or 1st person singular (pragmatically, prob=
ably<br>
&gt; sg right?)<br>
<br>
I&#39;d say 1SG, as Lojban has 1PL pronouns with clusivity. &quot;mi&quot; =
can be used with <br>
a plural referent, which means that we all speak as one, or something like =
<br>
that.<br></blockquote><div><br>Those are my thoughts too.=C2=A0 It might ma=
ke sense in corporate prayer, legal contracts, signed petitions, and the li=
ke.=C2=A0 I still tend to think that pragmatically any plural use of &quot;=
mi&quot; should be marked as &quot;ro mi&quot; or something.=C2=A0 The plur=
al meaning is hardly ever needed, and IMHO it&#39;s more confusing (as in t=
hese glosses) than helpful to have it hanging around.<br></div><div><br>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; o&#39;a- / proudly<br>
<br>
It&#39;s not an adverb (&quot;proudly&quot; would modify &quot;carry&quot;)=
. It&#39;s an attitudinal, and <br>
should get an abbreviation in caps.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Som=
ething like proud.ATNL perhaps?<br></div><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; -dai / OBV / obviate (don&#39;t know what else to call this)<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t either. The obviative marks a third person as being less salien=
t than <br>
another third person. One of &quot;ko&#39;a&quot; and &quot;fo&#39;a&quot; =
could be considered proximate <br>
and the other obviative.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, and sim=
ilarly, -dai marks something that is less salient than the first person.=C2=
=A0 Another case where I tried to recycle something out there in use.<br></=
div><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; lo / DET or *NPZ<br>
&gt; mamta / mother<br>
&gt; be / INAL / inalienable possession<br>
<br>
Inalienable possession is &quot;po&#39;e&quot;. &quot;lo citka be lo funduk=
i&quot; does not mean &quot;the <br>
eater inalienably possessed by a hazelnut&quot;; it means &quot;someone who=
 eats a <br>
hazelnut&quot;.</blockquote><div><br>I would not use INAL in all cases of &=
quot;be&quot;.=C2=A0 In the case of citka I&#39;d use DO (direct object) or=
 something.=C2=A0 However, I do think that the alienability distinction, as=
 it usually appears in natural languages (e.g. in terms for kin, body parts=
, etc.), is nearly always reflected in Lojban place structures and expresse=
d in the alternation between &quot;pe&quot; and &quot;be&quot;. In my view,=
 inalienable possession is merely a subtype of a much more general argument=
/non-argument distinction, whether linguists (or Lojbanists) notice it or n=
ot.<br><br>As far as &quot;po&#39;e&quot;, it&#39;s supposed to be a fall-b=
ack in case a Lojban place structure fails to capture the inalienable posse=
ssor of some word in some culture.=C2=A0 I am not sure how much use it has =
seen, but I think that if its function is really needed, it would be more f=
itting simply to coin a new word with the desired place structure.=C2=A0 I =
would say that &quot;be&quot; is the real inalienable possessor marker in L=
ojban.<br></div><div><br><br></div><div>mi&#39;e .maik.<br></div><div>mu=
9;o.<br><br></div><div><br><br><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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