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[77.56.54.238]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v67sm6789491wme.24.2019.06.22.05.46.42 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 22 Jun 2019 05:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: mezohe Subject: Re: [lojban] x2 of remna To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <3599730.Gzx9hWiHjm@mooncat> <6562214.O196nLXU51@mooncat> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2019 14:46:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: wow.jvs@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MFRAF8+m; spf=pass (google.com: domain of wow.jvs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::431 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=wow.jvs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.9 X-Spam_score_int: -28 X-Spam_bar: -- > Where do you get the idea that zo'e is a constant? As I understand it, {m= i=20 > viska ci cakcinki} is equally true if I see three Japanese beetles (of wh= ich=20 > there are many on the blackberry plants) or if I see a cocuyo, a scarab, = and a=20 > weevil.=20 xorxes, at least, intended for zo'e to be a constant [1]. zo'e=20 (especially explicit zo'e) as a variable would be problematic for=20 negation [2]. [1] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_gadri#Notes_2 [2] http://mail.lojban.org/lojban-list/msg47182.html > I=E2=80=99m pretty sure this is not how all this works. If a place isn=E2= =80=99t invoked, > it doesn=E2=80=99t participate in the quantification; therefore, =C2=ABso= =E2=80=99i cakcinki cu > xabju lo purdi=C2=BB has *unary* =C2=ABcakcinki=C2=BB, so the correct mea= ning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=98there are > many beetles living in the garden.=E2=80=99 In practice it does seem like unfilled places don't exist, although if=20 you ask people they'll usually say that there is something filling them,=20 most often zo'e [3-5], hence my slightly tongue-in-cheek outrage. [3] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda#Elliptical_words [4] https://lojban.github.io/cll/7/7/ [5] https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons/2 Some will say unfilled places are zi'o, which is blessed with at least=20 two competing meanings, or that they are ambiguous between zo'e and zi'o. zi'o1: remove the place, creating a new predicate that has nothing do to=20 with the removed place zi'o2: remove the place on the surface by substituting {be su'oi da} zi'o2 is, imo, only marginally better than zo'e, as it still takes only=20 one value when in a LO phrase. zi'o1 is nice, but feels pragmatically odd in that when explicit, it's=20 supposed to make an utterance less specific by adding words to it, which=20 might give a weak implicature that {broda zi'o .e no da}. Though this is=20 just baggage from zo'e officially being default I think -- implicit=20 zi'o1 should be free of it. >=20 > la tersmu agrees: > purdi(c0); (so'i)x1:(cakcinki(_)). zvati(x1,c0) (I wouldn't think tersmu has much to say here as it doesn't have a=20 dictionary of predicates' arities) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= lojban/eba80ead-f66e-1b57-5b9c-123ce0dd0c21%40gmail.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.