Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2019 01:39:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <16f93a3b-369f-444a-a0ab-66c5f243014f@googlegroups.com>
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References: <35cc2ce0-a33a-4b4e-ac7c-1cf01f99a33c@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar
 book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore the 
two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.

Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna 
escreveu:
>
> LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If 
> you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your 
> feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban + 
> optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, email 
> will be recorded for future reference by LLG.
>
> The document 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit# 
> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background denotes 
> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from the 
> text.
>
> If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document 
> and share your thoughts.
>
> Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of the Logical 
> Language Group and published at 
> https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw 
> in "LLG Members Meeting 2018" channel:
> ----
> Veto mode of updating CLL:
> Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15 
> years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge them 
> into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL
> Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work delegated 
> to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG 
> voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, and 
> fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after 
> getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents it to LLG 
> for verification and approval.
> Proposed solution in detail:
> the document 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit# 
> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background  denotes 
> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from the 
> text.
>
> Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition 
> of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these changes by 
> naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluent speaker vetoes 
> a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and optionally in English by 
> providing reasons why this change should not be applied. In case a voting 
> member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the member or John W. Cowan 
> must provide in English their reasons why this change should not be 
> applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their replies with 
> their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly logged by LLG 
> for future reference.
> Who is "fluent speaker of Lojban"? Any person who can speak grammatically 
> correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member who is a fluent 
> speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such a fluent 
> speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person pretends 
> that he/she/ze/they don't understand that a veto was made. In  such cases 
> any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the veto or even veto 
> a change themselves instead of that person.
>
> Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed 
> (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes but for 
> this one-time job the document is final)
> LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto 
> votes.
> In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces 
> that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to merge 
> exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the 
> document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and put 
> a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versions 
> of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee 
> Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG 
> account on Amazon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer and 
> the President with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.
> Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to 
> immediately present it to LLG for official approval.
> LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL versions.
> Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this 
> proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members? 
> Highly unlikely and hasn't been done ever as far as i know)
>
> le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member 
> this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged 
> and accessible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among 
> those are:
>
> #lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/
> this Framateam Mattermost channel
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban
> any page of mw.lojban.org
> Non-formal procedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal 
> wherever allowed once this proposal passes.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UT=
C therefore the two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.<br><br=
>Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escre=
veu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex=
;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>LLG =
needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If you are=
 a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your feedback (=
in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban + optionally in Eng=
lish). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, email will be recorded f=
or future reference by LLG.</div><div><br></div><div><div>The document <a h=
ref=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aq=
djlTisxIaiw/edit#" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAun=
b7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https:=
//docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/e=
dit#&#39;;return true;">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ=
_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of pr=
oposed changes. Text with green background denotes additions to the text, t=
ext with red background denotes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></di=
v></div><div>If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at th=
e document and share your thoughts.</div><div><br></div>Here is the full te=
xt of the proposal passed at the meeting of the Logical Language Group and =
published at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=
=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedo=
wn=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframat=
eam.org%2Fsignup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x=
3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return t=
rue;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%=
2F%2Fframateam.org%2Fsignup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy=
7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg=
9;;return true;">https://framateam.org/<wbr>signup_user_complete/?id=3D<wbr=
>17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw</a> in &quot;LLG Members Meeting 2018&quot; cha=
nnel:<div>----</div><div><div>Veto mode of updating CLL:</div><div>Premises=
: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15 years ago o=
r more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge them into the text=
 of CLL. But still no updates to CLL</div><div>Proposed solution in short: =
a one-time job with most hard work delegated to Gleki, with minimum possibl=
e effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG voting members, John W. Cowan, th=
e author of the first edition of CLL, and fluent speakers if a collection o=
f mistypes is okay or not and after getting the feedback compiles a new ver=
sion of CLL and presents it to LLG for verification and approval.</div><div=
>Proposed solution in detail:</div><div>the document <a href=3D"https://doc=
s.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#"=
 target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https:/=
/docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/ed=
it#&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/=
document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return t=
rue;">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstC=
OaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed changes. Te=
xt with green background=C2=A0 denotes additions to the text, text with red=
 background denotes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div><div>Any v=
oting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CL=
L, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these changes by naming=
 each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluent speaker vetoes a cha=
nge this vetoing must be done in Lojban and optionally in English by provid=
ing reasons why this change should not be applied. In case a voting member =
of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the member or John W. Cowan must pr=
ovide in English their reasons why this change should not be applied. The r=
eplier must be informed beforehand that their replies with their publicly v=
isible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly logged by LLG for future refe=
rence.</div><div>Who is &quot;fluent speaker of Lojban&quot;? Any person wh=
o can speak grammatically correct Lojban and who can be understood by any L=
LG member who is a fluent speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenari=
os when such a fluent speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malic=
ious person pretends that he/she/ze/they don&#39;t understand that a veto w=
as made. In=C2=A0 such cases any other LLG member or fluent speaker can tra=
nslate the veto or even veto a change themselves instead of that person.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the d=
ocument is allowed (which means in future new documents may appear for amen=
ded changes but for this one-time job the document is final)</div><div>LLG =
waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto votes.<=
/div><div>In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG an=
nounces that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right t=
o merge exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the=
 document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and pu=
t a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versions=
 of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee P=
owell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG acc=
ount on Amazon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer and th=
e President with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.</div><div>=
Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to im=
mediately present it to LLG for official approval.</div><div>LLG approves o=
r rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL versions.</div><div>Approv=
ing the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this proposal (shou=
ld physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members? Highly unlikely a=
nd hasn&#39;t been done ever as far as i know)</div><div><br></div><div>le =
ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member this c=
hat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged and acce=
ssible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among those are:</=
div><div><br></div><div>#lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.</div=
><div><a href=3D"https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/ur=
l?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sn=
tz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFcXATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;" onc=
lick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.=
facebook.com%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNF=
cXATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;">https://www.facebook.com/<wb=
r>groups/lojban/</a></div><div>this Framateam Mattermost channel</div><div>=
<a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.co=
m/forum/#!topic/lojban&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https=
://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban&#39;;return true;">https://groups=
.google.com/<wbr>forum/#!topic/lojban</a></div><div>any page of <a href=3D"=
http://mw.lojban.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"thi=
s.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org\x26=
sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt29ODky-rqD6o_Q&#39;;retu=
rn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3=
A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt=
29ODky-rqD6o_Q&#39;;return true;">mw.lojban.org</a></div><div>Non-formal pr=
ocedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal wherever allowed on=
ce this proposal passes.</div></div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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