Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 23:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <f4999b45-ed4d-4b00-973d-b1aa119dc1e1@googlegroups.com>
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 <16f93a3b-369f-444a-a0ab-66c5f243014f@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar
 book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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As of now we have one veto vote.It's about a mistype that a proposed {tu'a}=
=20
+ {jei} change could introduce (see=20
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisx=
Iaiw/edit#).

We have ~24 days left. On August 26, 2019 the veto period ends and all the=
=20
proposed changes can go to the next edition of CLL.


Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna escreveu=
:
>
> Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore the=
=20
> two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.
>
> Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna=20
> escreveu:
>>
>> LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If=
=20
>> you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your=
=20
>> feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban +=20
>> optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, emai=
l=20
>> will be recorded for future reference by LLG.
>>
>> The document=20
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlT=
isxIaiw/edit#=20
>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background denotes=
=20
>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from t=
he=20
>> text.
>>
>> If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document=
=20
>> and share your thoughts.
>>
>> Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of the=20
>> Logical Language Group and published at=20
>> https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy=
7yw=20
>> in "LLG Members Meeting 2018" channel:
>> ----
>> Veto mode of updating CLL:
>> Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15=
=20
>> years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge them=
=20
>> into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL
>> Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work delegated=
=20
>> to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG=
=20
>> voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, a=
nd=20
>> fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after=20
>> getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents it to LL=
G=20
>> for verification and approval.
>> Proposed solution in detail:
>> the document=20
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlT=
isxIaiw/edit#=20
>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background  denotes=
=20
>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from t=
he=20
>> text.
>>
>> Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first=20
>> edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these=
=20
>> changes by naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluent=
=20
>> speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and optional=
ly=20
>> in English by providing reasons why this change should not be applied. I=
n=20
>> case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the member =
or=20
>> John W. Cowan must provide in English their reasons why this change shou=
ld=20
>> not be applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their repli=
es=20
>> with their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly logge=
d=20
>> by LLG for future reference.
>> Who is "fluent speaker of Lojban"? Any person who can speak grammaticall=
y=20
>> correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member who is a flue=
nt=20
>> speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such a fluent=
=20
>> speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person pretend=
s=20
>> that he/she/ze/they don't understand that a veto was made. In  such case=
s=20
>> any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the veto or even ve=
to=20
>> a change themselves instead of that person.
>>
>> Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed=
=20
>> (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes but =
for=20
>> this one-time job the document is final)
>> LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto=
=20
>> votes.
>> In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces=
=20
>> that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to mer=
ge=20
>> exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the=20
>> document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and =
put=20
>> a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html version=
s=20
>> of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee=
=20
>> Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG=
=20
>> account on Amazon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer =
and=20
>> the President with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.
>> Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to=
=20
>> immediately present it to LLG for official approval.
>> LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL versions.
>> Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this=20
>> proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members?=
=20
>> Highly unlikely and hasn't been done ever as far as i know)
>>
>> le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member=
=20
>> this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged=
=20
>> and accessible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among=
=20
>> those are:
>>
>> #lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/
>> this Framateam Mattermost channel
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban
>> any page of mw.lojban.org
>> Non-formal procedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal=20
>> wherever allowed once this proposal passes.
>>
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr">As of now we have one veto vote.It&#39;s about a mistype t=
hat a proposed {tu&#39;a} + {jei} change could introduce (see https://docs.=
google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#).<=
div><br></div><div>We have ~24 days left. On August 26, 2019 the veto perio=
d ends and all the proposed changes can go to the next edition of CLL.</div=
><div><br><br>Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, Gleki Arx=
okuna  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin=
-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore th=
e two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.<br><br>Em quarta-fei=
ra, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>LLG needs your feedback=
 on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If you are a fluent speaker o=
f Lojban or a member of LLG please share your feedback (in case you are a f=
luent speaker please reply in Lojban + optionally in English). Notice: your=
 publicly visible ID, nickname, email will be recorded for future reference=
 by LLG.</div><div><br></div><div><div>The document <a href=3D"https://docs=
.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://=
docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edi=
t#&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/d=
ocument/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return tr=
ue;">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCO=
aAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed changes. Tex=
t with green background denotes additions to the text, text with red backgr=
ound denotes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div></div><div>If you=
 are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document and shar=
e your thoughts.</div><div><br></div>Here is the full text of the proposal =
passed at the meeting of the Logical Language Group and published at=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px69=
3dm8kmy7yw" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&=
#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframateam.org%2Fsignup_us=
er_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x2=
6usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"th=
is.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframateam.org%=
2Fsignup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26s=
ntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return true;">ht=
tps://framateam.org/<wbr>signup_user_complete/?id=3D<wbr>17b4ir6u6by6px693d=
m8kmy7yw</a> in &quot;LLG Members Meeting 2018&quot; channel:<div>----</div=
><div><div>Veto mode of updating CLL:</div><div>Premises: CLL should be upd=
ated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15 years ago or more. 2.5 years a=
go we were technically ready to merge them into the text of CLL. But still =
no updates to CLL</div><div>Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with=
 most hard work delegated to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyon=
e else. Gleki asks LLG voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the fir=
st edition of CLL, and fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay =
or not and after getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and pre=
sents it to LLG for verification and approval.</div><div>Proposed solution =
in detail:</div><div>the document <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/docume=
nt/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/do=
cument/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return tru=
e;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNR=
raQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;">https://docs.=
google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<=
wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green backg=
round=C2=A0 denotes additions to the text, text with red background denotes=
 deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div><div>Any voting member of LLG=
 or John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, and any fluent s=
peaker of Lojban can veto any of these changes by naming each of vetoed cha=
nges individually. In case a fluent speaker vetoes a change this vetoing mu=
st be done in Lojban and optionally in English by providing reasons why thi=
s change should not be applied. In case a voting member of LLG or John W. C=
owan vetoes a change the member or John W. Cowan must provide in English th=
eir reasons why this change should not be applied. The replier must be info=
rmed beforehand that their replies with their publicly visible IDs, names, =
nicknames will be publicly logged by LLG for future reference.</div><div>Wh=
o is &quot;fluent speaker of Lojban&quot;? Any person who can speak grammat=
ically correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member who is a =
fluent speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such a flue=
nt speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person pretend=
s that he/she/ze/they don&#39;t understand that a veto was made. In=C2=A0 s=
uch cases any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the veto or =
even veto a change themselves instead of that person.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed =
(which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes but for=
 this one-time job the document is final)</div><div>LLG waits for 2 months =
since the adoption of this proposal for any veto votes.</div><div>In 2 mont=
hs in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces that change=
s are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to merge exactly non=
-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the document into CLL =
version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and put a duty on Gleki t=
o produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versions of CLL 1.2 and wit=
hin 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee Powell if provided) =
a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG account on Amazon or c=
reating a new account but providing the Treasurer and the President with al=
l the credentials to such new Amazon account.</div><div>Once Gleki produces=
 a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to immediately present i=
t to LLG for official approval.</div><div>LLG approves or rejects the resul=
ting electronic candidate CLL versions.</div><div>Approving the paper versi=
on of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this proposal (should physical copies =
of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members? Highly unlikely and hasn&#39;t been =
done ever as far as i know)</div><div><br></div><div>le ve cusku (means of =
transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member this chat is okay. In cas=
e of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged and accessible to any LLG m=
ember means of communication is okay. Among those are:</div><div><br></div>=
<div>#lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.</div><div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" o=
nmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dA=
FQjCNFcXATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=
=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgr=
oups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFcXATVr7bjusexRy0t=
KRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;">https://www.facebook.com/<wbr>groups/lojban/<=
/a></div><div>this Framateam Mattermost channel</div><div><a href=3D"https:=
//groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank=
" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/l=
ojban&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.=
com/forum/#!topic/lojban&#39;;return true;">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>=
forum/#!topic/lojban</a></div><div>any page of <a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.=
org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;htt=
p://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x=
3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt29ODky-rqD6o_Q&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.=
org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt29ODky-rqD6o_Q=
9;;return true;">mw.lojban.org</a></div><div>Non-formal procedures: anyone =
is encouraged to publish this proposal wherever allowed once this proposal =
passes.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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