Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 05:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <554d333e-306c-4f61-8216-9f170a77690e@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <f4999b45-ed4d-4b00-973d-b1aa119dc1e1@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar
 book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform me if Iforgot to include=
=20
any other veto votes.

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical


Em sexta-feira, 2 de agosto de 2019 09:12:36 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna escreveu=
:
>
> As of now we have one veto vote.It's about a mistype that a proposed=20
> {tu'a} + {jei} change could introduce (see=20
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTi=
sxIaiw/edit#
> ).
>
> We have ~24 days left. On August 26, 2019 the veto period ends and all th=
e=20
> proposed changes can go to the next edition of CLL.
>
>
> Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna escrev=
eu:
>>
>> Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore th=
e=20
>> two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.
>>
>> Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna=20
>> escreveu:
>>>
>>> LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If=
=20
>>> you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your=
=20
>>> feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban +=20
>>> optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, ema=
il=20
>>> will be recorded for future reference by LLG.
>>>
>>> The document=20
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdjl=
TisxIaiw/edit#=20
>>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background denotes=
=20
>>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from =
the=20
>>> text.
>>>
>>> If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the documen=
t=20
>>> and share your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of the=20
>>> Logical Language Group and published at=20
>>> https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8km=
y7yw=20
>>> in "LLG Members Meeting 2018" channel:
>>> ----
>>> Veto mode of updating CLL:
>>> Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15=
=20
>>> years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge the=
m=20
>>> into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL
>>> Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work delegate=
d=20
>>> to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG=
=20
>>> voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, =
and=20
>>> fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after=20
>>> getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents it to L=
LG=20
>>> for verification and approval.
>>> Proposed solution in detail:
>>> the document=20
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdjl=
TisxIaiw/edit#=20
>>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background  denote=
s=20
>>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from =
the=20
>>> text.
>>>
>>> Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first=20
>>> edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these=
=20
>>> changes by naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluent=
=20
>>> speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and optiona=
lly=20
>>> in English by providing reasons why this change should not be applied. =
In=20
>>> case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the member=
 or=20
>>> John W. Cowan must provide in English their reasons why this change sho=
uld=20
>>> not be applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their repl=
ies=20
>>> with their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly logg=
ed=20
>>> by LLG for future reference.
>>> Who is "fluent speaker of Lojban"? Any person who can speak=20
>>> grammatically correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG membe=
r=20
>>> who is a fluent speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios whe=
n=20
>>> such a fluent speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious=
=20
>>> person pretends that he/she/ze/they don't understand that a veto was ma=
de.=20
>>> In  such cases any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the=
=20
>>> veto or even veto a change themselves instead of that person.
>>>
>>> Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed=
=20
>>> (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes but=
 for=20
>>> this one-time job the document is final)
>>> LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto=
=20
>>> votes.
>>> In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announce=
s=20
>>> that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to me=
rge=20
>>> exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the=20
>>> document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and=
 put=20
>>> a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versio=
ns=20
>>> of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Le=
e=20
>>> Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LL=
G=20
>>> account on Amazon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer=
 and=20
>>> the President with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.
>>> Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged t=
o=20
>>> immediately present it to LLG for official approval.
>>> LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL versions=
.
>>> Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this=20
>>> proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members?=
=20
>>> Highly unlikely and hasn't been done ever as far as i know)
>>>
>>> le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member=
=20
>>> this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logge=
d=20
>>> and accessible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among=
=20
>>> those are:
>>>
>>> #lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.
>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/
>>> this Framateam Mattermost channel
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban
>>> any page of mw.lojban.org
>>> Non-formal procedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal=20
>>> wherever allowed once this proposal passes.
>>>
>>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform me =
if Iforgot to include any other veto votes.</div><div><br></div><div>https:=
//mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical</div><div><br></div><br>Em sexta-f=
eira, 2 de agosto de 2019 09:12:36 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left=
: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">As of now we have one=
 veto vote.It&#39;s about a mistype that a proposed {tu&#39;a} + {jei} chan=
ge could introduce (see <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tjgm=
RNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nof=
ollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1=
TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9=
XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;">https://docs.google.com=
/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edi=
t#</a>).<div><br></div><div>We have ~24 days left. On August 26, 2019 the v=
eto period ends and all the proposed changes can go to the next edition of =
CLL.</div><div><br><br>Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, =
Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC theref=
ore the two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.<br><br>Em quar=
ta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>LLG needs your fe=
edback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If you are a fluent spe=
aker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your feedback (in case you a=
re a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban + optionally in English). Notice=
: your publicly visible ID, nickname, email will be recorded for future ref=
erence by LLG.</div><div><br></div><div><div>The document <a href=3D"https:=
//docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/e=
dit#" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;ht=
tps://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa=
iw/edit#&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google=
.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;ret=
urn true;">https://docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9X=
JfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed change=
s. Text with green background denotes additions to the text, text with red =
background denotes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div></div><div>=
If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document an=
d share your thoughts.</div><div><br></div>Here is the full text of the pro=
posal passed at the meeting of the Logical Language Group and published at=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6=
by6px693dm8kmy7yw" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.h=
ref=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframateam.org%2Fsi=
gnup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\=
x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return true;" onclic=
k=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframate=
am.org%2Fsignup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3=
dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return tr=
ue;">https://framateam.org/<wbr>signup_user_complete/?id=3D<wbr>17b4ir6u6by=
6px693dm8kmy7yw</a> in &quot;LLG Members Meeting 2018&quot; channel:<div>--=
--</div><div><div>Veto mode of updating CLL:</div><div>Premises: CLL should=
 be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15 years ago or more. 2.5 =
years ago we were technically ready to merge them into the text of CLL. But=
 still no updates to CLL</div><div>Proposed solution in short: a one-time j=
ob with most hard work delegated to Gleki, with minimum possible effort fro=
m anyone else. Gleki asks LLG voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of =
the first edition of CLL, and fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes i=
s okay or not and after getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL =
and presents it to LLG for verification and approval.</div><div>Proposed so=
lution in detail:</div><div>the document <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com=
/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google=
.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;ret=
urn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1=
TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;">https:=
//docs.google.com/<wbr>document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdjl=
TisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with gree=
n background=C2=A0 denotes additions to the text, text with red background =
denotes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div><div>Any voting member=
 of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, and any f=
luent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these changes by naming each of vet=
oed changes individually. In case a fluent speaker vetoes a change this vet=
oing must be done in Lojban and optionally in English by providing reasons =
why this change should not be applied. In case a voting member of LLG or Jo=
hn W. Cowan vetoes a change the member or John W. Cowan must provide in Eng=
lish their reasons why this change should not be applied. The replier must =
be informed beforehand that their replies with their publicly visible IDs, =
names, nicknames will be publicly logged by LLG for future reference.</div>=
<div>Who is &quot;fluent speaker of Lojban&quot;? Any person who can speak =
grammatically correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member wh=
o is a fluent speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such=
 a fluent speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person =
pretends that he/she/ze/they don&#39;t understand that a veto was made. In=
=C2=A0 such cases any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the =
veto or even veto a change themselves instead of that person.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is =
allowed (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes=
 but for this one-time job the document is final)</div><div>LLG waits for 2=
 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto votes.</div><div>I=
n 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces tha=
t changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to merge exa=
ctly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the document i=
nto CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and put a duty on=
 Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versions of CLL 1.2=
 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee Powell if pr=
ovided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG account on Ama=
zon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer and the President=
 with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.</div><div>Once Gleki =
produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to immediately p=
resent it to LLG for official approval.</div><div>LLG approves or rejects t=
he resulting electronic candidate CLL versions.</div><div>Approving the pap=
er version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this proposal (should physical=
 copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members? Highly unlikely and hasn&#39=
;t been done ever as far as i know)</div><div><br></div><div>le ve cusku (m=
eans of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member this chat is okay=
. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged and accessible to a=
ny LLG member means of communication is okay. Among those are:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>#lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.</div><div><a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_=
blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26=
usg\x3dAFQjCNFcXATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"thi=
s.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.co=
m%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFcXATVr7bjus=
exRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;">https://www.facebook.com/<wbr>groups/lo=
jban/</a></div><div>this Framateam Mattermost channel</div><div><a href=3D"=
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"=
_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.com/forum/#!t=
opic/lojban&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.g=
oogle.com/forum/#!topic/lojban&#39;;return true;">https://groups.google.com=
/<wbr>forum/#!topic/lojban</a></div><div>any page of <a href=3D"http://mw.l=
ojban.org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#=
39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26=
sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt29ODky-rqD6o_Q&#39;;return true;" o=
nclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.l=
ojban.org\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNGxTKf7V-djkGwt29ODky-rqD6=
o_Q&#39;;return true;">mw.lojban.org</a></div><div>Non-formal procedures: a=
nyone is encouraged to publish this proposal wherever allowed once this pro=
posal passes.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div>=
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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