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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:21:38 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=OLEfrUhH0ZbQ6+bGSH5m95S6zgJZbqCFRsRO79T1B8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language"
 grammar book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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In veto 4, "an y-hyphen" should be "a y-hyphen". The name of the letter "y"
starts with a consonant, namely, /w/, and so should be used with "a"
instead of "an".

stevo

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:30 AM Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

> So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform me if Iforgot to includ=
e
> any other veto votes.
>
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical
>
>
> Em sexta-feira, 2 de agosto de 2019 09:12:36 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna
> escreveu:
>>
>> As of now we have one veto vote.It's about a mistype that a proposed
>> {tu'a} + {jei} change could introduce (see
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlT=
isxIaiw/edit#
>> ).
>>
>> We have ~24 days left. On August 26, 2019 the veto period ends and all
>> the proposed changes can go to the next edition of CLL.
>>
>>
>> Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna escre=
veu:
>>>
>>> Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore
>>> the two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.
>>>
>>> Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna
>>> escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. I=
f
>>>> you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share you=
r
>>>> feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban +
>>>> optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, em=
ail
>>>> will be recorded for future reference by LLG.
>>>>
>>>> The document
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdj=
lTisxIaiw/edit#
>>>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background denote=
s
>>>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from=
 the
>>>> text.
>>>>
>>>> If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the
>>>> document and share your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of the
>>>> Logical Language Group and published at
>>>> https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8k=
my7yw
>>>> in "LLG Members Meeting 2018" channel:
>>>> ----
>>>> Veto mode of updating CLL:
>>>> Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 1=
5
>>>> years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge th=
em
>>>> into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL
>>>> Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work
>>>> delegated to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gle=
ki
>>>> asks LLG voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first editio=
n of
>>>> CLL, and fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not an=
d
>>>> after getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents =
it to
>>>> LLG for verification and approval.
>>>> Proposed solution in detail:
>>>> the document
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdj=
lTisxIaiw/edit#
>>>> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background  denot=
es
>>>> additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from=
 the
>>>> text.
>>>>
>>>> Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first
>>>> edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these
>>>> changes by naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluen=
t
>>>> speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and option=
ally
>>>> in English by providing reasons why this change should not be applied.=
 In
>>>> case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the membe=
r or
>>>> John W. Cowan must provide in English their reasons why this change sh=
ould
>>>> not be applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their rep=
lies
>>>> with their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly log=
ged
>>>> by LLG for future reference.
>>>> Who is "fluent speaker of Lojban"? Any person who can speak
>>>> grammatically correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG memb=
er
>>>> who is a fluent speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios wh=
en
>>>> such a fluent speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some maliciou=
s
>>>> person pretends that he/she/ze/they don't understand that a veto was m=
ade.
>>>> In  such cases any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate th=
e
>>>> veto or even veto a change themselves instead of that person.
>>>>
>>>> Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed
>>>> (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes bu=
t for
>>>> this one-time job the document is final)
>>>> LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any vet=
o
>>>> votes.
>>>> In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG
>>>> announces that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the =
right
>>>> to merge exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided =
in
>>>> the document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2=
, and
>>>> put a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html
>>>> versions of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help fro=
m
>>>> Robin Lee Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either
>>>> existing LLG account on Amazon or creating a new account but providing=
 the
>>>> Treasurer and the President with all the credentials to such new Amazo=
n
>>>> account.
>>>> Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged
>>>> to immediately present it to LLG for official approval.
>>>> LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL version=
s.
>>>> Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this
>>>> proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members=
?
>>>> Highly unlikely and hasn't been done ever as far as i know)
>>>>
>>>> le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG membe=
r
>>>> this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logg=
ed
>>>> and accessible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among
>>>> those are:
>>>>
>>>> #lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/
>>>> this Framateam Mattermost channel
>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban
>>>> any page of mw.lojban.org
>>>> Non-formal procedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal
>>>> wherever allowed once this proposal passes.
>>>>
>>> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/554d333e-306c-4f61-8216-9f170a77=
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7690e%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">In veto 4, &quot;an y-hyphen&quot; should be &quot;a y-hyphe=
n&quot;. The name of the letter &quot;y&quot; starts with a consonant, name=
ly, /w/, and so should be used with &quot;a&quot; instead of &quot;an&quot;=
.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,=
monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:cour=
ier new,monospace">stevo</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:30 AM Gleki Arxokun=
a &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform =
me if Iforgot to include any other veto votes.</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical</a></div><div><br></div><br>E=
m sexta-feira, 2 de agosto de 2019 09:12:36 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu=
:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">As of n=
ow we have one veto vote.It&#39;s about a mistype that a proposed {tu&#39;a=
} + {jei} change could introduce (see <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/do=
cument/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9X=
JfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#</a>).<div><br></div><div>We have ~24 days l=
eft. On August 26, 2019 the veto period ends and all the proposed changes c=
an go to the next edition of CLL.</div><div><br><br>Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de j=
unho de 2019 11:39:31 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Notice, the proposal passed o=
n June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore the two-month period ends on Augus=
t 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.<br><br>Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 10:12:44=
 UTC+3, Gleki Arxokuna  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>LLG needs your feedback on updating the refer=
ence grammar of Lojban. If you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member o=
f LLG please share your feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please r=
eply in Lojban + optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, =
nickname, email will be recorded for future reference by LLG.</div><div><br=
></div><div><div>The document <a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d=
/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaA=
unb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#</a> contains a list of proposed changes. Text with =
green background denotes additions to the text, text with red background de=
notes deletions from the text.</div><div><br></div></div><div>If you are no=
t a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document and share your =
thoughts.</div><div><br></div>Here is the full text of the proposal passed =
at the meeting of the Logical Language Group and published at=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8km=
y7yw" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://framateam.org/signup_user_=
complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw</a> in &quot;LLG Members Meeting =
2018&quot; channel:<div>----</div><div><div>Veto mode of updating CLL:</div=
><div>Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded =
15 years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge them=
 into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL</div><div>Proposed solut=
ion in short: a one-time job with most hard work delegated to Gleki, with m=
inimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG voting members, Joh=
n W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, and fluent speakers if =
a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after getting the feedback comp=
iles a new version of CLL and presents it to LLG for verification and appro=
val.</div><div>Proposed solution in detail:</div><div>the document <a href=
=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7Aqdjl=
TisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://docs.google.com/=
document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#</a> contains =
a list of proposed changes. Text with green background=C2=A0 denotes additi=
ons to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from the text.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the aut=
hor of the first edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto =
any of these changes by naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case=
 a fluent speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and o=
ptionally in English by providing reasons why this change should not be app=
lied. In case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the m=
ember or John W. Cowan must provide in English their reasons why this chang=
e should not be applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their=
 replies with their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly=
 logged by LLG for future reference.</div><div>Who is &quot;fluent speaker =
of Lojban&quot;? Any person who can speak grammatically correct Lojban and =
who can be understood by any LLG member who is a fluent speaker too. Veto m=
ode minimizes possible scenarios when such a fluent speaker disagrees with =
a change to CLL but some malicious person pretends that he/she/ze/they don&=
#39;t understand that a veto was made. In=C2=A0 such cases any other LLG me=
mber or fluent speaker can translate the veto or even veto a change themsel=
ves instead of that person.</div><div><br></div><div>Changes are either vet=
oed or not. No change to the document is allowed (which means in future new=
 documents may appear for amended changes but for this one-time job the doc=
ument is final)</div><div>LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this=
 proposal for any veto votes.</div><div>In 2 months in case at least one no=
n-vetoed change is left LLG announces that changes are ready to be merged a=
nd delegates Gleki the right to merge exactly non-vetoed changes with exact=
ly the changes provided in the document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning i=
t into CLL version 1.2, and put a duty on Gleki to produce within one month=
 pdf, epub,mobi, html versions of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (a=
ccepting help from Robin Lee Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2=
 using either existing LLG account on Amazon or creating a new account but =
providing the Treasurer and the President with all the credentials to such =
new Amazon account.</div><div>Once Gleki produces a new electronic version =
of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to immediately present it to LLG for official appr=
oval.</div><div>LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate =
CLL versions.</div><div>Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of th=
e scope of this proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all =
LLG members? Highly unlikely and hasn&#39;t been done ever as far as i know=
)</div><div><br></div><div>le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies)=
: in case of LLG member this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speaker=
s any publicly logged and accessible to any LLG member means of communicati=
on is okay. Among those are:</div><div><br></div><div>#lojban, #ckule,#jbos=
nu Freenode IRC channels.</div><div><a href=3D"https://www.facebook.com/gro=
ups/lojban/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://www.facebook.com/gr=
oups/lojban/</a></div><div>this Framateam Mattermost channel</div><div><a h=
ref=3D"https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban" rel=3D"nofollow" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban</a></div><div=
>any page of <a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_b=
lank">mw.lojban.org</a></div><div>Non-formal procedures: anyone is encourag=
ed to publish this proposal wherever allowed once this proposal passes.</di=
v></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></di=
v>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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