Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: fail (google.com: domain of mark@kli.org does not designate 96.56.207.26 as permitted sender) client-ip=96.56.207.26;
Subject: Re: [lojban] xebro jirnytabra
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
References: <8039710.71oZ9UHxJm@mooncat>
 <CAHiXx=M3=G50dqpMoF+CXc295-i6v9eyvkOsLvPR4KfCNaH96Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4781348.KezK7iDG8L@mooncat>
From: "Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org>
Message-ID: <cfad79ee-2864-aef5-b70a-e66f96b72e95@kli.org>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 20:50:45 -0400
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4781348.KezK7iDG8L@mooncat>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -3.0
X-Spam_score_int: -29
X-Spam_bar: ---

On 8/31/19 8:27 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
> On Saturday, 31 August 2019 08.59.10 EDT MorphemeAddict wrote:
>> What's "tandala" based on? I get that it's defined in the text, but I ca=
n't
>> find any term that would serve as the source of the Lojban word.
>> What is "bakrto"?
> It's Swahili: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tandala .
>
> Lo bakrto is the ungulate called =D7=AA=D7=90=D7=95 in Hebrew, which is m=
entioned in Deut.
> 14:5. In modern Hebrew it is the buffalo, and different editions of the R=
eina-
> Valera and the LXX list the buffalo in this verse, but not all in the sam=
e
> position. How long ago did water buffaloes arrive in Egypt?
>
> Pierre
>
Indeed... I've remarked on this before.=C2=A0 If knowing what a word means=
=20
requires that the listener... well, be you, (since nobody else can=20
deduce the meaning from the word), then how does that enable=20
communication?=C2=A0 And if it doesn't communicate, what linguistic purpose=
=20
does it serve?

That's really the issue with fu'ivla in general, and especially with=20
unmarked ones.=C2=A0 Marking them with a rafsi (like bakrto) is at least a=
=20
start, but in a case like this where the whole issue is _which_ specific=20
bakni you are talking about, it doesn't do much.

I could maybe see an argument for default naming of animal/plant species=20
by fu'ivla derived semi-obviously from their standard Linnean binomials=20
(though even then it would be a pain for most people to look them up),=20
since there is at least a standard.=C2=A0 But when faced with a word whose=
=20
source could literally be *any* language (that Pierre has heard of), and=20
possibly even modified idiosyncratically (.alzaitu.?=C2=A0 Well, stuck the=
=20
al- article from Arabic to the Arabic word for olives (zayt) in order to=20
get the consonant cluster.=C2=A0 And how was I supposed to guess that?)

If you mean to say things to people, they need to have SOME way to work=20
out what you said.

~mark

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
lojban/cfad79ee-2864-aef5-b70a-e66f96b72e95%40kli.org.