Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29;
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <1ec1b9e9-3f83-4599-a127-f978cbd844c4@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7tK2cPjyaOZcqOQSXrWRdKbFmkzvDDFg3MQCVWiM4f62R1-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <218161c6-b97e-4e8f-b2e9-a2583094f749@googlegroups.com> <CAO7bV+i90zpzn=O-5+YGeSxhEvFWk6574drR=bs1gmgc7U3bnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKOEKkT2d61OWw0orJN9PCE135cqL3ZB_Bno5ZjwfOn7JH7apQ@mail.gmail.com> <20200205173834.u7jlfnisrqsbqeix@renro>
In-Reply-To: <20200205173834.u7jlfnisrqsbqeix@renro>
From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:27:52 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=P3La9UiyhELbMEU4xjYreU3DTsCxnKPAuX=rLqGNe3YA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Sensations / qualia (colors etc.)
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089e67b059de83c3c"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.6
X-Spam_score_int: -25
X-Spam_bar: --

--00000000000089e67b059de83c3c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

What is the sense of "ka" that is used in modern dialects of Lojban? I
didn't even realize Lojban has dialects.

stevo

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 11:39 AM Jacob Thomas Errington <
jake@mail.jerrington.me> wrote:

> Why even bother with {tu'a}? What's hiding under that implicit abstraction
> anyway?
>
> One could just say {mi nelci lo ka xunre}. Even though modern dialects
> of Lojban use {ka} in a particular way (mostly unrelated to the
> presentation of {ka} in the CLL), {mi nelci lo ka xunre} could make
> sense.
> I would interpret it to mean something like "I like to-be-red" and I
> use dashes here to distance this interpretation from what the English
> "I like to be red" means. The Lojban would mean something like "I like
> it that things are red" or that "I like redness". This is in contrast
> with {lo ka xunre cu pluka mi} which would actually mean "I like to be
> red".
>
> mi'e la tsani mu'o
>
> On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 11:33:25AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> >   I mean, I'm reading emails from 3.5 years ago, and Lord knows i don't
> > grok modern dialects of lojban, but.  What's wrong with "mi nelci (tu'a)
> lo
> > ka xunre"? isn't the whole point of ka to be a quale extractor?
> >            --gejyspa
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:06 AM Gleki Arxokuna <
> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-05-12 11:43 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> Throughout this response, I use "qualia" rather than "quale" at some
> > >> points because there may be more than one quale associated with that
> thing,
> > >> I do not want to assume.
> > >>
> > >> > "Is that very different from "I like elephants", "elephants are
> > >> beautiful animals"?"
> > >>
> > >> Yes, at least from a technical standpoint in Lojban. In Lojban "lo
> xunre"
> > >> is a red thing. So, we can only say "I like red things" and "red
> things are
> > >> beautiful things". To actually capture the essence of redness, we
> need a
> > >> new mechanism. We could also use it in order to capture the qualia of
> > >> elephantness, but that is only sort of what you probably like or find
> > >> beautiful. There is an added layer of abstraction or
> instant-experience
> > >> there. Red (the color) is a sensation, independent of what is causing
> it
> > >> (the stimulus). The essence/being of an elephant is similar, but not
> really
> > >> a sensation that I, at least, directly register normally. However, if
> you
> > >> had never seen an elephant and I described everything about them to
> you,
> > >> and then you eventually experienced one in real life, any new
> information
> > >> that you gained from the experience would presumably be the qualia of
> > >> elephantness and that is something which you would have a firmer
> grasp on
> > >> and might like. I would not say, though, that most people are
> thinking this
> > >> way when saying that they like elephants, although maybe they could or
> > >> should (or should could).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > "Is that very different from "I see elephants" when there are no
> > >> elephants around?"
> > >>
> > >> Again, a little bit. Seeing red is a direct sensation. There is no
> object
> > >> involved and no processing/deeper understanding.
> > >
> > >
> > > There is still some object that is red. How can you sense red without
> an
> > > object?
> > >
> > > A red apple is on a red table together with a red knife and there is
> the
> > > red sun that you can see through the red window. All of them together
> > > (table+apple+knife+window+the sun) can be called "one single red thing
> (or
> > > grand-thing if you wish)".
> > >
> > > All of the red things you have ever experiences in your life can be
> called
> > > "one single red thing" (so that's why "set of all things" in gua\spi
> > > definition although "set" needs more precise definition here,
> obviously,
> > > the same apple seen two times are two experiences and therefore two
> > > mini-things that are parts of one grand-thing).
> > >
> > >
> > > Seeing an elephant is seeing an object which is an elephant and
> > >> interpreting it as such (even if that object does not exist, there is
> no
> > >> way of knowing that by instanteous vision alone). Of course, there
> are some
> > >> qualia to it, but there is also, in the normal interpretation of that
> > >> statement, something more. It is not impossible to see the qualia of
> > >> elephantness, but that is not what you really mean, I think.
> > >>
> > >
> > > So what is meant here?
> > > I've seen several pictures of elephants in books and now I sense a real
> > > elephant. It has the same set of properties as those elephants have
> > > (pictures of whom I read earlier.)
> > > I've seen that red apple, that red knife and now I can see a red ball.
> > > Earlier experiences had red being 640 nm and 660 nm wavelength
> together (a
> > > mixture of two properties, both wavelengths are expressed with "red").
> > > This red ball is 640 nm only (+ many other properties like roundness
> etc.)
> > > I've never seen red balls before but this one matches my earlier
> > > experiences so I call it "red". This red ball also has this property
> of 640
> > > nm as the aopple and the knife.
> > >
> > > This elephant also has this property of "has trunk + gray + four legs +
> > > ears" just as those elephants pictured in those books I read earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > "So "I like elephants" becomes "mi nelci lo ganseti be lo ka
> xanto"?"
> > >>
> > >> No. That is "I like the qualia of elephantness". Liking the object of
> an
> > >> or several elephant(s) is just "mi nelci lo xanto". An elephant is one
> > >> object which has the qualia of elephantness (and, arguably, might be
> the
> > >> unique class with this property). Analogously, "mi nelci lo xunre" is
> "I
> > >> like one or several objects which are red". These objects are things
> which
> > >> have the quale of redness (possibly and even probably/arguably
> necessarily
> > >> among other qualia). To like redness itself, the very idea and
> essence and
> > >> immediate sensation of it, one needs the qualia abstraction.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > "I don't see a problem with a word for "qualia", but I don't expect
> > >> people to start saying "I like the qualia of being red" or "I like the
> > >> qualia of being an elephant" instead of "I like red" or "I like
> elephants"
> > >> though. It seems more natural that "lo xanto", "lo xunre" can be
> elephants
> > >> (in general) and red as well as particular elephants or particular red
> > >> objects. I'd rather these ontological distinctions be handled with
> brivla,
> > >> not grammaticized with cmavo."
> > >>
> > >> It is a matter of what people should say, not what they currently do
> say
> > >> due to bad habits and the failings of natural languages and their own
> > >> education and tendencies in using Lojban. If they are alerted to such
> > >> issues, then they are more likely to improve. As they currently are,
> and if
> > >> they ignore these issues, they are incorrect. Lojban is, in my
> opinion,
> > >> meant to bring this realization to the surface and then to fix it and
> to
> > >> provide the tools for doing so in a reasonable but uncompromisingly
> > >> rigorous way. Natural usage has nothing to do with it because it is
> wrong
> > >> in this case.
> > >>
> > >> I think that a cmavo is extremely beneficial and probably necessary in
> > >> this case. In general, we may try to avoid staking out ontological
> > >> positions via their establishment.
> > >>
> > >> Note that this is not just a philosophical position that is being
> > >> hardcoded into the language's vocabulary, functionality/support, and
> > >> grammar. There is already a major flaw in the language that must be
> patched
> > >> somehow. This is one solution, and a versatile and robust one at
> that. And,
> > >> like I said, it is good to bring awareness to the language's learners
> about
> > >> this issue in their own conscious understanding of their cognition.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the only flaw here is to be still with morphology of English
> with
> > > its adjective/noun distinction.
> > > E.g. Russian language uses colors as verbs so what? Shall we borrow
> this
> > > thing into Lojban?
> > >
> > > The only lack of precision I can see in red/elephant distinction is
> that
> > > elephants are more stable in time but this is a vague distinction as
> people
> > > mentioned many times (e.g. [1]
> > > <
> https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_la_gleki's_fishy_apples>
> > > ).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> > >> "lojban" group.
> > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an
> > >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> > > "lojban" group.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an
> > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAKOEKkT2d61OWw0orJN9PCE135cqL3ZB_Bno5ZjwfOn7JH7apQ%40mail.gmail.com
> .
>
> --
> Jacob Thomas Errington
> W: https://jerrington.me/
>
>
> Sent via Migadu.com, world's easiest email hosting
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/20200205173834.u7jlfnisrqsbqeix%40renro
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAHiXx%3DP3La9UiyhELbMEU4xjYreU3DTsCxnKPAuX%3DrLqGNe3YA%40mail.gmail.com.

--00000000000089e67b059de83c3c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">What is the sense of &quot;ka&quot; that is used in modern d=
ialects of Lojban? I didn&#39;t even realize Lojban has dialects.=C2=A0</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,mon=
ospace">stevo</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 11:39 AM Jacob Thomas Errington &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jake@mail.jerrington.me">jake@mail.jerrington.me</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Why ev=
en bother with {tu&#39;a}? What&#39;s hiding under that implicit abstractio=
n anyway?<br>
<br>
One could just say {mi nelci lo ka xunre}. Even though modern dialects<br>
of Lojban use {ka} in a particular way (mostly unrelated to the<br>
presentation of {ka} in the CLL), {mi nelci lo ka xunre} could make<br>
sense.<br>
I would interpret it to mean something like &quot;I like to-be-red&quot; an=
d I<br>
use dashes here to distance this interpretation from what the English<br>
&quot;I like to be red&quot; means. The Lojban would mean something like &q=
uot;I like<br>
it that things are red&quot; or that &quot;I like redness&quot;. This is in=
 contrast<br>
with {lo ka xunre cu pluka mi} which would actually mean &quot;I like to be=
<br>
red&quot;.<br>
<br>
mi&#39;e la tsani mu&#39;o<br>
<br>
On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 11:33:25AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0I mean, I&#39;m reading emails from 3.5 years ago, and Lor=
d knows i don&#39;t<br>
&gt; grok modern dialects of lojban, but.=C2=A0 What&#39;s wrong with &quot=
;mi nelci (tu&#39;a) lo<br>
&gt; ka xunre&quot;? isn&#39;t the whole point of ka to be a quale extracto=
r?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:06 AM Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
leki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; 2016-05-12 11:43 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cu=
rtis.w.franks@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">curtis.w.franks@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Throughout this response, I use &quot;qualia&quot; rather tha=
n &quot;quale&quot; at some<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; points because there may be more than one quale associated wi=
th that thing,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I do not want to assume.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;Is that very different from &quot;I like elephants=
&quot;, &quot;elephants are<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; beautiful animals&quot;?&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Yes, at least from a technical standpoint in Lojban. In Lojba=
n &quot;lo xunre&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; is a red thing. So, we can only say &quot;I like red things&q=
uot; and &quot;red things are<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; beautiful things&quot;. To actually capture the essence of re=
dness, we need a<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; new mechanism. We could also use it in order to capture the q=
ualia of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; elephantness, but that is only sort of what you probably like=
 or find<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; beautiful. There is an added layer of abstraction or instant-=
experience<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; there. Red (the color) is a sensation, independent of what is=
 causing it<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (the stimulus). The essence/being of an elephant is similar, =
but not really<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; a sensation that I, at least, directly register normally. How=
ever, if you<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; had never seen an elephant and I described everything about t=
hem to you,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; and then you eventually experienced one in real life, any new=
 information<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; that you gained from the experience would presumably be the q=
ualia of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; elephantness and that is something which you would have a fir=
mer grasp on<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; and might like. I would not say, though, that most people are=
 thinking this<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; way when saying that they like elephants, although maybe they=
 could or<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; should (or should could).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;Is that very different from &quot;I see elephants&=
quot; when there are no<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; elephants around?&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Again, a little bit. Seeing red is a direct sensation. There =
is no object<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; involved and no processing/deeper understanding.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; There is still some object that is red. How can you sense red wit=
hout an<br>
&gt; &gt; object?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; A red apple is on a red table together with a red knife and there=
 is the<br>
&gt; &gt; red sun that you can see through the red window. All of them toge=
ther<br>
&gt; &gt; (table+apple+knife+window+the sun) can be called &quot;one single=
 red thing (or<br>
&gt; &gt; grand-thing if you wish)&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; All of the red things you have ever experiences in your life can =
be called<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;one single red thing&quot; (so that&#39;s why &quot;set of =
all things&quot; in gua\spi<br>
&gt; &gt; definition although &quot;set&quot; needs more precise definition=
 here, obviously,<br>
&gt; &gt; the same apple seen two times are two experiences and therefore t=
wo<br>
&gt; &gt; mini-things that are parts of one grand-thing).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Seeing an elephant is seeing an object which is an elephant and<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;&gt; interpreting it as such (even if that object does not exist, =
there is no<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; way of knowing that by instanteous vision alone). Of course, =
there are some<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; qualia to it, but there is also, in the normal interpretation=
 of that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; statement, something more. It is not impossible to see the qu=
alia of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; elephantness, but that is not what you really mean, I think.<=
br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; So what is meant here?<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;ve seen several pictures of elephants in books and now I se=
nse a real<br>
&gt; &gt; elephant. It has the same set of properties as those elephants ha=
ve<br>
&gt; &gt; (pictures of whom I read earlier.)<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;ve seen that red apple, that red knife and now I can see a =
red ball.<br>
&gt; &gt; Earlier experiences had red being 640 nm and 660 nm wavelength to=
gether (a<br>
&gt; &gt; mixture of two properties, both wavelengths are expressed with &q=
uot;red&quot;).<br>
&gt; &gt; This red ball is 640 nm only (+ many other properties like roundn=
ess etc.)<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;ve never seen red balls before but this one matches my earl=
ier<br>
&gt; &gt; experiences so I call it &quot;red&quot;. This red ball also has =
this property of 640<br>
&gt; &gt; nm as the aopple and the knife.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This elephant also has this property of &quot;has trunk + gray + =
four legs +<br>
&gt; &gt; ears&quot; just as those elephants pictured in those books I read=
 earlier.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;So &quot;I like elephants&quot; becomes &quot;mi n=
elci lo ganseti be lo ka xanto&quot;?&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; No. That is &quot;I like the qualia of elephantness&quot;. Li=
king the object of an<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; or several elephant(s) is just &quot;mi nelci lo xanto&quot;.=
 An elephant is one<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; object which has the qualia of elephantness (and, arguably, m=
ight be the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; unique class with this property). Analogously, &quot;mi nelci=
 lo xunre&quot; is &quot;I<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; like one or several objects which are red&quot;. These object=
s are things which<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; have the quale of redness (possibly and even probably/arguabl=
y necessarily<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; among other qualia). To like redness itself, the very idea an=
d essence and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; immediate sensation of it, one needs the qualia abstraction.<=
br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &quot;I don&#39;t see a problem with a word for &quot;qu=
alia&quot;, but I don&#39;t expect<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; people to start saying &quot;I like the qualia of being red&q=
uot; or &quot;I like the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; qualia of being an elephant&quot; instead of &quot;I like red=
&quot; or &quot;I like elephants&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; though. It seems more natural that &quot;lo xanto&quot;, &quo=
t;lo xunre&quot; can be elephants<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; (in general) and red as well as particular elephants or parti=
cular red<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; objects. I&#39;d rather these ontological distinctions be han=
dled with brivla,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; not grammaticized with cmavo.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is a matter of what people should say, not what they curre=
ntly do say<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; due to bad habits and the failings of natural languages and t=
heir own<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; education and tendencies in using Lojban. If they are alerted=
 to such<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; issues, then they are more likely to improve. As they current=
ly are, and if<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; they ignore these issues, they are incorrect. Lojban is, in m=
y opinion,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; meant to bring this realization to the surface and then to fi=
x it and to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; provide the tools for doing so in a reasonable but uncompromi=
singly<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; rigorous way. Natural usage has nothing to do with it because=
 it is wrong<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; in this case.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I think that a cmavo is extremely beneficial and probably nec=
essary in<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; this case. In general, we may try to avoid staking out ontolo=
gical<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; positions via their establishment.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Note that this is not just a philosophical position that is b=
eing<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; hardcoded into the language&#39;s vocabulary, functionality/s=
upport, and<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; grammar. There is already a major flaw in the language that m=
ust be patched<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; somehow. This is one solution, and a versatile and robust one=
 at that. And,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; like I said, it is good to bring awareness to the language=
9;s learners about<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; this issue in their own conscious understanding of their cogn=
ition.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I think the only flaw here is to be still with morphology of Engl=
ish with<br>
&gt; &gt; its adjective/noun distinction.<br>
&gt; &gt; E.g. Russian language uses colors as verbs so what? Shall we borr=
ow this<br>
&gt; &gt; thing into Lojban?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The only lack of precision I can see in red/elephant distinction =
is that<br>
&gt; &gt; elephants are more stable in time but this is a vague distinction=
 as people<br>
&gt; &gt; mentioned many times (e.g. [1]<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_l=
a_gleki&#39;s_fishy_apples" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mw=
.lojban.org/papri/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_la_gleki&#39;s_fishy_apples</a>&gt;<=
br>
&gt; &gt; ).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the G=
oogle Groups<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from=
 it, send an<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban=
@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/grou=
p/lojban" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/gr=
oup/lojban</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/=
d/optout" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/=
optout</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt; &gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl=
e Groups<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,=
 send an<br>
&gt; &gt; email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt; To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@goo=
glegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lo=
jban" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/group/=
lojban</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt; For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/op=
tout" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/opto=
ut</a>.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.goo=
gle.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAKOEKkT2d61OWw0orJN9PCE135cqL3ZB_Bno5ZjwfOn7JH7apQ%=
40mail.gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl=
e.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAKOEKkT2d61OWw0orJN9PCE135cqL3ZB_Bno5ZjwfOn7JH7apQ%40=
mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jacob Thomas Errington<br>
W: <a href=3D"https://jerrington.me/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://jerrington.me/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Sent via Migadu.com, world&#39;s easiest email hosting<br>
<br>
-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/20200205173834.u7jlfnisrqsbqeix%40renro" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/2020020517383=
4.u7jlfnisrqsbqeix%40renro</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msgid/lojban/CAHiXx%3DP3La9UiyhELbMEU4xjYreU3DTsCxnKPAuX%3DrLqGNe3YA%4=
0mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.goog=
le.com/d/msgid/lojban/CAHiXx%3DP3La9UiyhELbMEU4xjYreU3DTsCxnKPAuX%3DrLqGNe3=
YA%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br />

--00000000000089e67b059de83c3c--