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Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 23:29:43 -0500
From: Jacob Thomas Errington <jake@mail.jerrington.me>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Sensations / qualia (colors etc.)
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Broadly speaking it's used to form infinitives.

mi'e la tsani mu'o

On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 07:27:52AM -0600, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> What is the sense of "ka" that is used in modern dialects of Lojban? I
> didn't even realize Lojban has dialects.
>
> stevo
>
> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 11:39 AM Jacob Thomas Errington <
> jake@mail.jerrington.me> wrote:
>
> > Why even bother with {tu'a}? What's hiding under that implicit abstraction
> > anyway?
> >
> > One could just say {mi nelci lo ka xunre}. Even though modern dialects
> > of Lojban use {ka} in a particular way (mostly unrelated to the
> > presentation of {ka} in the CLL), {mi nelci lo ka xunre} could make
> > sense.
> > I would interpret it to mean something like "I like to-be-red" and I
> > use dashes here to distance this interpretation from what the English
> > "I like to be red" means. The Lojban would mean something like "I like
> > it that things are red" or that "I like redness". This is in contrast
> > with {lo ka xunre cu pluka mi} which would actually mean "I like to be
> > red".
> >
> > mi'e la tsani mu'o
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 11:33:25AM -0500, Michael Turniansky wrote:
> > >   I mean, I'm reading emails from 3.5 years ago, and Lord knows i don't
> > > grok modern dialects of lojban, but.  What's wrong with "mi nelci (tu'a)
> > lo
> > > ka xunre"? isn't the whole point of ka to be a quale extractor?
> > >            --gejyspa
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:06 AM Gleki Arxokuna <
> > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2016-05-12 11:43 GMT+03:00 Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > >> Throughout this response, I use "qualia" rather than "quale" at some
> > > >> points because there may be more than one quale associated with that
> > thing,
> > > >> I do not want to assume.
> > > >>
> > > >> > "Is that very different from "I like elephants", "elephants are
> > > >> beautiful animals"?"
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes, at least from a technical standpoint in Lojban. In Lojban "lo
> > xunre"
> > > >> is a red thing. So, we can only say "I like red things" and "red
> > things are
> > > >> beautiful things". To actually capture the essence of redness, we
> > need a
> > > >> new mechanism. We could also use it in order to capture the qualia of
> > > >> elephantness, but that is only sort of what you probably like or find
> > > >> beautiful. There is an added layer of abstraction or
> > instant-experience
> > > >> there. Red (the color) is a sensation, independent of what is causing
> > it
> > > >> (the stimulus). The essence/being of an elephant is similar, but not
> > really
> > > >> a sensation that I, at least, directly register normally. However, if
> > you
> > > >> had never seen an elephant and I described everything about them to
> > you,
> > > >> and then you eventually experienced one in real life, any new
> > information
> > > >> that you gained from the experience would presumably be the qualia of
> > > >> elephantness and that is something which you would have a firmer
> > grasp on
> > > >> and might like. I would not say, though, that most people are
> > thinking this
> > > >> way when saying that they like elephants, although maybe they could or
> > > >> should (or should could).
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > "Is that very different from "I see elephants" when there are no
> > > >> elephants around?"
> > > >>
> > > >> Again, a little bit. Seeing red is a direct sensation. There is no
> > object
> > > >> involved and no processing/deeper understanding.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is still some object that is red. How can you sense red without
> > an
> > > > object?
> > > >
> > > > A red apple is on a red table together with a red knife and there is
> > the
> > > > red sun that you can see through the red window. All of them together
> > > > (table+apple+knife+window+the sun) can be called "one single red thing
> > (or
> > > > grand-thing if you wish)".
> > > >
> > > > All of the red things you have ever experiences in your life can be
> > called
> > > > "one single red thing" (so that's why "set of all things" in gua\spi
> > > > definition although "set" needs more precise definition here,
> > obviously,
> > > > the same apple seen two times are two experiences and therefore two
> > > > mini-things that are parts of one grand-thing).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Seeing an elephant is seeing an object which is an elephant and
> > > >> interpreting it as such (even if that object does not exist, there is
> > no
> > > >> way of knowing that by instanteous vision alone). Of course, there
> > are some
> > > >> qualia to it, but there is also, in the normal interpretation of that
> > > >> statement, something more. It is not impossible to see the qualia of
> > > >> elephantness, but that is not what you really mean, I think.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > So what is meant here?
> > > > I've seen several pictures of elephants in books and now I sense a real
> > > > elephant. It has the same set of properties as those elephants have
> > > > (pictures of whom I read earlier.)
> > > > I've seen that red apple, that red knife and now I can see a red ball.
> > > > Earlier experiences had red being 640 nm and 660 nm wavelength
> > together (a
> > > > mixture of two properties, both wavelengths are expressed with "red").
> > > > This red ball is 640 nm only (+ many other properties like roundness
> > etc.)
> > > > I've never seen red balls before but this one matches my earlier
> > > > experiences so I call it "red". This red ball also has this property
> > of 640
> > > > nm as the aopple and the knife.
> > > >
> > > > This elephant also has this property of "has trunk + gray + four legs +
> > > > ears" just as those elephants pictured in those books I read earlier.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > "So "I like elephants" becomes "mi nelci lo ganseti be lo ka
> > xanto"?"
> > > >>
> > > >> No. That is "I like the qualia of elephantness". Liking the object of
> > an
> > > >> or several elephant(s) is just "mi nelci lo xanto". An elephant is one
> > > >> object which has the qualia of elephantness (and, arguably, might be
> > the
> > > >> unique class with this property). Analogously, "mi nelci lo xunre" is
> > "I
> > > >> like one or several objects which are red". These objects are things
> > which
> > > >> have the quale of redness (possibly and even probably/arguably
> > necessarily
> > > >> among other qualia). To like redness itself, the very idea and
> > essence and
> > > >> immediate sensation of it, one needs the qualia abstraction.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > "I don't see a problem with a word for "qualia", but I don't expect
> > > >> people to start saying "I like the qualia of being red" or "I like the
> > > >> qualia of being an elephant" instead of "I like red" or "I like
> > elephants"
> > > >> though. It seems more natural that "lo xanto", "lo xunre" can be
> > elephants
> > > >> (in general) and red as well as particular elephants or particular red
> > > >> objects. I'd rather these ontological distinctions be handled with
> > brivla,
> > > >> not grammaticized with cmavo."
> > > >>
> > > >> It is a matter of what people should say, not what they currently do
> > say
> > > >> due to bad habits and the failings of natural languages and their own
> > > >> education and tendencies in using Lojban. If they are alerted to such
> > > >> issues, then they are more likely to improve. As they currently are,
> > and if
> > > >> they ignore these issues, they are incorrect. Lojban is, in my
> > opinion,
> > > >> meant to bring this realization to the surface and then to fix it and
> > to
> > > >> provide the tools for doing so in a reasonable but uncompromisingly
> > > >> rigorous way. Natural usage has nothing to do with it because it is
> > wrong
> > > >> in this case.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think that a cmavo is extremely beneficial and probably necessary in
> > > >> this case. In general, we may try to avoid staking out ontological
> > > >> positions via their establishment.
> > > >>
> > > >> Note that this is not just a philosophical position that is being
> > > >> hardcoded into the language's vocabulary, functionality/support, and
> > > >> grammar. There is already a major flaw in the language that must be
> > patched
> > > >> somehow. This is one solution, and a versatile and robust one at
> > that. And,
> > > >> like I said, it is good to bring awareness to the language's learners
> > about
> > > >> this issue in their own conscious understanding of their cognition.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think the only flaw here is to be still with morphology of English
> > with
> > > > its adjective/noun distinction.
> > > > E.g. Russian language uses colors as verbs so what? Shall we borrow
> > this
> > > > thing into Lojban?
> > > >
> > > > The only lack of precision I can see in red/elephant distinction is
> > that
> > > > elephants are more stable in time but this is a vague distinction as
> > people
> > > > mentioned many times (e.g. [1]
> > > > <
> > https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Tl%C3%B6n,_Uqbar_and_la_gleki's_fishy_apples>
> > > > ).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >> --
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> > > >>
> > > >
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> > .
> >
> > --
> > Jacob Thomas Errington
> > W: https://jerrington.me/
> >
> >
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> >
>
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