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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 16:29:30 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
To: lojban list <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <18776223.2757089.1586622570213@mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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This seems like a good time for the sorta annual reminder thaat Lojban as c=
urrently constituted is doomed to fail of its intended goals. =C2=A0The rea=
son is simply that it is built upside down, so the proofs all have to run u=
p hill. =C2=A0This pattern was set by JCB on day one, when he decided to wo=
rk by adding logic to a speakable langauge (English), rather than extractin=
g a speakable language from loigc (not FOPL, the then favorite, but, as sho=
uld have been obvious already in the early days of Loglan, what is now call=
ed Higher Order Intensional Logic (HOIL)). =C2=A0We know this can be done b=
ecause it is a given in (certain, e.g. Montague=E2=80=99s) linguistic theor=
ies that that is how languages actually come about.Ordinary languages deriv=
e sentences from formulae (as it were) by a variety of transformation in a =
variety of orders, with the result that a given senence may be traceable ba=
ck through various histories to very different original formuale, amphiboly=
. =C2=A0The task of constructing a Loglan, then, is to find a set of transf=
ormations and ordering rules which is at every step unique, such that, at e=
ach step, the products involved are traceable back to a single form in each=
 case. =C2=A0In tthis way, the monoparsing of the original formula is inher=
ited by the final sentence. =C2=A0Working the other way, the best to be hop=
ed for is successive approximations to the goal but nevr a guarantee that y=
ou have actually succeeded (even if you have). =C2=A0By now, if yoou have b=
een paying attention as you went along, you should know wnough about HOIL (=
however you think about it) and about transformation and order rules to hav=
e a good start of a right side up project. =C2=A0Turning your attention to =
that would be a much better use of your time than correcting minor footnote=
s in CLL.2 or whatever.

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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">This seems like a good time for the sorta an=
nual reminder thaat Lojban as currently constituted is doomed to fail of it=
s intended goals. &nbsp;The reason is simply that it is built upside down, =
so the proofs all have to run up hill. &nbsp;This pattern was set by JCB on=
 day one, when he decided to work by adding logic to a speakable langauge (=
English), rather than extracting a speakable language from loigc (not FOPL,=
 the then favorite, but, as should have been obvious already in the early d=
ays of Loglan, what is now called Higher Order Intensional Logic (HOIL)). &=
nbsp;We know this can be done because it is a given in (certain, e.g. Monta=
gue=E2=80=99s) linguistic theories that that is how languages actually come=
 about.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Ordinary languages deri=
ve sentences from formulae (as it were) by a variety of transformation in a=
 variety of orders, with the result that a given senence may be traceable b=
ack through various histories to very different original formuale, amphibol=
y. &nbsp;The task of constructing a Loglan, then, is to find a set of trans=
formations and ordering rules which is at every step unique, such that, at =
each step, the products involved are traceable back to a single form in eac=
h case. &nbsp;In tthis way, the monoparsing of the original formula is inhe=
rited by the final sentence. &nbsp;Working the other way, the best to be ho=
ped for is successive approximations to the goal but nevr a guarantee that =
you have actually succeeded (even if you have). &nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
" data-setdir=3D"false">By now, if yoou have been paying attention as you w=
ent along, you should know wnough about HOIL (however you think about it) a=
nd about transformation and order rules to have a good start of a right sid=
e up project. &nbsp;Turning your attention to that would be a much better u=
se of your time than correcting minor footnotes in CLL.2 or whatever.</div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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