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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 22:28:06 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+BOX=1HLsDPpYnnF4F5udZYZW1L9n87bhWw6t4rwYzKhw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:12, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Em s=C3=A1bado, 11 de abril de 2020 21:39:56 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:
>>
>> I would=E2=80=99ve agreed, but neither logic nor linguistics are alchemy=
.
>>
>
> But spoken fopl or swh might be.
> (Controlled parsable semantically unambiguous English is a thing anyway
> and is in use unlike Lojban)
>

But a well-defined project with a well-defined charter is not. Projects are
endowed with goals primarily to be able to assess their degree of
completion easily; so, you can look at Lojban and the goals that we=E2=80=
=99ve set
for it and say that the project is incomplete.

=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.


>
>> Lojban has succeeded as a language that people use to communicate, but a=
s
>> a project, it fails to meet the requirements as it stands now. From a
>> bird=E2=80=99s-eye view, this might not be so apparent, but then you rea=
lize that
>> so many little things are left undecided, like {ce=E2=80=99u} filling, e=
xact
>> semantics of FIhO, some grammatical quirks like {.y bu} and {zo .y}, and
>> the ever-present issue of overengineering=E2=80=A6
>>
>> You could say that this is not a problem for Lojban, and I=E2=80=99d agr=
ee: not
>> for Lojban as a language (or languages, since Lojban dialects tend to so=
lve
>> these matters more elegantly and therefore amount to an advancement, not=
 a
>> hindrance). But the overall project=E2=80=99s criteria have not yet been=
 met, and
>> thus it is still ongoing, which raises the question of why one should ca=
re
>> to believe in its completion provided that it=E2=80=99s over 30 years si=
nce it was
>> founded. I, for one, prefer to stake my bets on a loglang project whose
>> development history =E2=80=94 track record =E2=80=94 and leadership do n=
ot foretell its
>> eventual abandonment.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 19:54, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Alchemists pursued what appeared to be nonexistent. Still they found a
>>> lot of gems during their research.
>>>
>>> So whatever goals Loglan or Lojban had in past it's fine in present as
>>> it is.
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Groups "lojban" group.
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>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/c29378ec-fcee-40c8-8c42-b0a807=
d85ddf%40googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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df47%40googlegroups.com
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2df47%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
> .
>

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<div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:12, Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em s=C3=
=A1bado, 11 de abril de 2020 21:39:56 UTC+3, uakci  escreveu:<blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">I would=E2=80=99ve agreed,=
 but neither logic nor linguistics are alchemy.</div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>But spoken fopl or swh might be.</div><div>(Controlled par=
sable semantically unambiguous English is a thing anyway and is in use unli=
ke Lojban)</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">But a well-defined project with a well-defined charter is not. Projec=
ts are endowed with goals primarily to be able to assess their degree of co=
mpletion easily; so, you can look at Lojban and the goals that we=E2=80=99v=
e set for it and say that the project is incomplete.</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=
=AD ka.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div><div dir=3D"auto"> Lojban has succeeded as a language that people use=
 to communicate, but as a project, it fails to meet the requirements as it =
stands now. From a bird=E2=80=99s-eye view, this might not be so apparent, =
but then you realize that so many little things are left undecided, like {c=
e=E2=80=99u} filling, exact semantics of FIhO, some grammatical quirks like=
 {.y bu} and {zo .y}, and the ever-present issue of overengineering=E2=80=
=A6</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You could say that t=
his is not a problem for Lojban, and I=E2=80=99d agree: not for Lojban as a=
 language (or languages, since Lojban dialects tend to solve these matters =
more elegantly and therefore amount to an advancement, not a hindrance). Bu=
t the overall project=E2=80=99s criteria have not yet been met, and thus it=
 is still ongoing, which raises the question of why one should care to beli=
eve in its completion provided that it=E2=80=99s over 30 years since it was=
 founded. I, for one, prefer to stake my bets on a loglang project whose de=
velopment history =E2=80=94 track record =E2=80=94 and leadership do not fo=
retell its eventual abandonment.</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 19:54, Gl=
eki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Alchemists pu=
rsued what appeared to be nonexistent. Still they found a lot of gems durin=
g their research.<br>
<br>
So whatever goals Loglan or Lojban had in past it&#39;s fine in present as =
it is.<br>
<br>
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/c29378ec-fcee-40c8-8c42-b0a807d85ddf%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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