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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 23:56:27 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+D0NF3ghV8wzD=oOv+ijrSiuNH3pgg5Ctn3JDMEO4nQxw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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sob., 11 kwi 2020 o 23:45 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
napisa=C5=82(a):

>
>
> Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 00:24:22 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:45, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't say it's incomplete. I would just say it failed to meet its
>>> goals.
>>
>>
>> Well, then that makes it a complete failure. :P
>>
>>
>>>
>>> And nevertheless the project lives on and the interest in it is non zer=
o
>>> despite all its failures which don't seem to bother fluent speakers a l=
ot.
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m a fluent speaker and I=E2=80=99m bothered.
>>
>
> I mean if you are fluent you can't be bothered or else you are not fluent=
.
>

Perhaps we're talking about different senses of the word 'bothered'. I'm
not bothered because I speak a dialect which works around these issues. I
could use the fossilized official dialect, but I'd risk many, many moments
of frustration and encumberment.


> If the language works there is no problem.
>

It doesn't really work that well, so there is a problem.

Unless this is not what one was intending it to work.
>

I'm not sure I grok this sentence. As I've said before, there's the issue
of overengineering. Sure, I can speak the bloated variants of Lojban, but
why should I if there are better solutions at reach? (Zantufa, Toaq, Xorban
are all examples of great non-overengineered work.)

And since Lojban is 35 years old and itself heavily borrowing from a
65-year-old language, it might be time to *remove* rather than *amend*. One
example: solpahi's connective system works just as well as the current one
=E2=80=94 which may have had to be this way due to YACC's limitations =E2=
=80=94 but offers
less bloat. So if we want simplicity and straightforwardness, why don't we
choose simplicity and straightforwardness if, again, it's within arm's
reach?

=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=A9 j=C3=AD ka.


>
>
>> And I know many Lojbanists (most of which prefer to stay out of this
>> community to preserve their sanity) who are bothered too.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi etc.
>>
>>
>>>
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06ecfe%40googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">sob., 11 kwi 2020 o 23:45=C2=A0Gleki =
Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em domingo, 12 de abril de 202=
0 00:24:22 UTC+3, uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:45, Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:glek=
i.is.my.name@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">I wouldn&#39;t say it&#39;s incomplete. I would just say it fail=
ed to meet its goals.</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Well, then that makes it a complete failure. :P</div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
And nevertheless the project lives on and the interest in it is non zero de=
spite all its failures which don&#39;t seem to bother fluent speakers a lot=
.</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99m a f=
luent speaker and I=E2=80=99m bothered. </div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>I mean if you are fluent you can&#39;t be bothered or else =
you are not fluent.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Perhaps we&=
#39;re talking about different senses of the word &#39;bothered&#39;. I&#39=
;m not bothered because I speak a dialect which works around these issues. =
I could use the fossilized official dialect, but I&#39;d risk many, many mo=
ments of frustration and encumberment.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>If the langua=
ge works there is no problem.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
t doesn&#39;t really work that well, so there is a problem.<br></div><div><=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div>Unless this is not what one was intending it to work.</div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure I grok this sentence. As I=
9;ve said before, there&#39;s the issue of overengineering. Sure, I can spe=
ak the bloated variants of Lojban, but why should I if there are better sol=
utions at reach? (Zantufa, Toaq, Xorban are all examples of great non-overe=
ngineered work.)</div><div><br></div><div>And since Lojban is 35 years old =
and itself heavily borrowing from a 65-year-old language, it might be time =
to *remove* rather than *amend*. One example: solpahi&#39;s connective syst=
em works just as well as the current one =E2=80=94 which may have had to be=
 this way due to YACC&#39;s limitations =E2=80=94 but offers less bloat. So=
 if we want simplicity and straightforwardness, why don&#39;t we choose sim=
plicity and straightforwardness if, again, it&#39;s within arm&#39;s reach?=
</div><div><br></div><div>=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=A9 j=C3=AD =
ka.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto">And I k=
now many Lojbanists (most of which prefer to stay out of this community to =
preserve their sanity) who are bothered too.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi etc.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
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/8eb60e09-2aa3-4e14-b37e-f716ea06ecfe%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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