Received: from mail-yb1-f187.google.com ([209.85.219.187]:43497) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jNOkA-0004qq-Cq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:56 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f187.google.com with SMTP id z8sf7348442ybi.10 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=y47o32MaMyzaLiIaw39lHrj5KqGSlYmtCjCLxximkmI=; b=Ywms67ynRuLNstVAD4gD34gGHYI0BoJ2+26A54TEV8BvmbyeMxdd7E6RaUoMhKuz9v g6HbqCWv0S3BOhHVzwa3o7OIZKUAbuwOxEE5n/a6TUZ6T+xG+nxy1chGoMXVk8MKSWnk nU5T0Vy4qa6Yk9Ku8SIfCITTRzxfyf2qPZ0y65k1YEAR6NBjeeL1/Q23mYsAGKwbyIBb nSXRwHFbyTFcaFj6isGCqhILJVe66zCIERYp80M6QJf1t0z3ApcnApG1ZzZqLpqZRVm4 Rxes+zTS087qt0CoB82b4EZ8I0u6iZPn56SKKZQiHCGNaJ10DmYr/KiDV12Vi+nzdRDt RpDg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=y47o32MaMyzaLiIaw39lHrj5KqGSlYmtCjCLxximkmI=; b=pFQB9TPwzQz21FDkv10Tty/nXVicHhKFD9Wf0wnFFRnDSgkpAALGoE3yV2jEF1lq5W NQNwzTMtxQEjryWSYpic/mgik9Ud/3k/bDZk8Y/pbAT4KpjXJYJVcbkUY18zqpJhPz72 5xmjC6GcqIj4pI1hiQSsz/I/7xHHozjOgX7Kh7Ef7PeeYjBnYElYBFUX3j2/az2PsM0N qbcFADphU+aSXhCjNrsMwMXlz2sH9gA1YjrX3+HS8fe7ZCCFYrasYf7jUT4PFDui7gxt RJ2vDFaJ8qQnBCUbsLgdo/6oLSPnVnqnps4TAj+AmZYhykXPPjQVLdDTt+R6csAl1RgE 4b2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=y47o32MaMyzaLiIaw39lHrj5KqGSlYmtCjCLxximkmI=; b=W4uw6W/JKsaZXMqYFae5y3aovipQb09EHOImN+QYatvmGtHd01p038YQ8d01+mgicr o42SPwg2ZBr9HUbUrlHuahSBcZjnFrt58DAzAkhYBFsl91aVUnTTrI1gpT5d3MDyBDbr bQcdCS3l8bkt51hzi4bxodaJv9iyTTXWw6OrLT66Cb86COKc+JIo4wb0A4Daz0PA3YbB s4v6iA+2H74q+nKB0fR0G+7fzMyyP2IvnAxnldPHqr1Kpw6df4g5qxzHWTvO3RCOJFwb E0sdlzjdqakZR/N2DTQyg6IkWc/0YkUOps1AOiX7nRJj05eMN6+LZnEnkJs+zBKHTkwu PwVA== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub6atjysYkHGg0NekS4Us8V0r6qtUJgw4zIawS7raoh73Y+593h VLj6XZgDep0IhyFEznv8tDo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ9VGOnebvzXKiSdgDJ3df0xT9UUWOfsLOwZR96oSt4u3ydKf3Q4YkiJyMSBOCINigzB+2NtQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:4c4:: with SMTP id v4mr17368024ybs.313.1586644608110; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a05:6902:4f4:: with SMTP id w20ls6913677ybs.5.gmail; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:bfcc:: with SMTP id q12mr17281325ybm.224.1586644606908; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 15:36:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <18776223.2757089.1586622570213.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <18776223.2757089.1586622570213@mail.yahoo.com> <6fe62be6-21b6-40b7-98b6-0f4e0072df47@googlegroups.com> <8eb60e09-2aa3-4e14-b37e-f716ea06ecfe@googlegroups.com> <1137a1b7-cd6f-4c7c-b2cc-f38e8b4abb3f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_902_670886085.1586644606439" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_902_670886085.1586644606439 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_903_275714703.1586644606439" ------=_Part_903_275714703.1586644606439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 00:56:42 UTC+3, uakci escreveu: > > > > sob., 11 kwi 2020 o 23:45 Gleki Arxokuna =20 > napisa=C5=82(a): > >> >> >> Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 00:24:22 UTC+3, uakci escreveu: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:45, Gleki Arxokuna =20 >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I wouldn't say it's incomplete. I would just say it failed to meet its= =20 >>>> goals. >>> >>> >>> Well, then that makes it a complete failure. :P >>> >>> >>>> >>>> And nevertheless the project lives on and the interest in it is non=20 >>>> zero despite all its failures which don't seem to bother fluent speake= rs a=20 >>>> lot. >>> >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m a fluent speaker and I=E2=80=99m bothered.=20 >>> >> >> I mean if you are fluent you can't be bothered or else you are not fluen= t. >> > > Perhaps we're talking about different senses of the word 'bothered'. I'm= =20 > not bothered because I speak a dialect which works around these issues. I= =20 > could use the fossilized official dialect, but I'd risk many, many moment= s=20 > of frustration and encumberment. > =20 > >> If the language works there is no problem. >> > > It doesn't really work that well, so there is a problem. > If the thing is speakable then it works. =20 > > Unless this is not what one was intending it to work. >> > > I'm not sure I grok this sentence. As I've said before, there's the issue= =20 > of overengineering. Sure, I can speak the bloated variants of Lojban, but= =20 > why should I if there are better solutions at reach? (Zantufa, Toaq, Xorb= an=20 > are all examples of great non-overengineered work.) > Some person may say: the first Hilbert operator is bi'u, the second one is= =20 lo'o'o'o'o'u and then another person would come and say: no, you misread=20 Hilbert so that's how I think it should work and hereby I propose=20 lo'o'o'o'ou I don't know what is better here and who are the judges. Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it's stability. > And since Lojban is 35 years old and itself heavily borrowing from a=20 > 65-year-old language, it might be time to *remove* rather than *amend*. O= ne=20 > example: solpahi's connective system works just as well as the current on= e=20 > =E2=80=94 which may have had to be this way due to YACC's limitations =E2= =80=94 but offers=20 > less bloat.=20 > I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.=20 So if we want simplicity=20 > Then we should speak English. Or toki pona (depending on the meaning of the= =20 word "simple") =20 > and straightforwardness, why don't we choose simplicity and=20 > straightforwardness if, again, it's within arm's reach? > Because there are also aspiring students within arm's reach. You learned something, good to you. Now create a copy of the database and test your crud operations on it so=20 that new learners can have python2 final version now and forever. > =E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=A9 j=C3=AD ka. > =20 > >> =20 >> >>> And I know many Lojbanists (most of which prefer to stay out of this=20 >>> community to preserve their sanity) who are bothered too. >>> >>> =E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi etc. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> --=20 >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 >>>> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/8eb60e09-2aa3-4e14-b37e-f716e= a06ecfe%40googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> >>> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lojban/1137a1b7-cd6f-4c7c-b2cc-f38e8b4= abb3f%40googlegroups.com=20 >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= lojban/e00859fc-e0cf-44f2-9c1a-c6ae178f647e%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_903_275714703.1586644606439 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 00:56:42 UTC+3, ua= kci escreveu:


sob., 11 kwi 2020 o 23:45=C2=A0Gleki Arxokuna <g= leki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):


Em domingo, 12 = de abril de 2020 00:24:22 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:


=
On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 22:45, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
I wouldn't say it's incomp= lete. I would just say it failed to meet its goals.

Well, then that makes it a complete fail= ure. :P



And nevertheless the project lives on and the interest in it is non zero de= spite all its failures which don't seem to bother fluent speakers a lot= .

I=E2=80=99m a f= luent speaker and I=E2=80=99m bothered.

I mean if you are fluent you can't be bothered or else = you are not fluent.

Perhaps we&= #39;re talking about different senses of the word 'bothered'. I'= ;m not bothered because I speak a dialect which works around these issues. = I could use the fossilized official dialect, but I'd risk many, many mo= ments of frustration and encumberment.
=C2=A0
If the langua= ge works there is no problem.

I= t doesn't really work that well, so there is a problem.
=
If the thing is speakable then it works.
= =C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">

Unless this is not what on= e was intending it to work.

I&#= 39;m not sure I grok this sentence. As I've said before, there's th= e issue of overengineering. Sure, I can speak the bloated variants of Lojba= n, but why should I if there are better solutions at reach? (Zantufa, Toaq,= Xorban are all examples of great non-overengineered work.)

Some person may say: the first Hilbert o= perator is bi'u, the second one is lo'o'o'o'o'u and= then another person would come and say: no, you misread Hilbert so that= 9;s how I think it should work and hereby I propose lo'o'o'o= 9;ou

I don't know what is better here and who = are the judges.
Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it= 's stability.


And= since Lojban is 35 years old and itself heavily borrowing from a 65-year-o= ld language, it might be time to *remove* rather than *amend*. One example:= solpahi's connective system works just as well as the current one =E2= =80=94 which may have had to be this way due to YACC's limitations =E2= =80=94 but offers less bloat.

I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawba= ck.=C2=A0


So if we wa= nt simplicity

Then we sh= ould speak English. Or toki pona (depending on the meaning of the word &quo= t;simple")
=C2=A0
and straightforwar= dness, why don't we choose simplicity and straightforwardness if, again= , it's within arm's reach?

<= /div>
Because there are also aspiring students within arm's reach.<= /div>

You learned something, good to you.

=
Now create a copy of the database and test your crud operations = on it so that new learners can have python2 final version now and forever.<= /div>


=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB= =89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=A9 j=C3=AD ka.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
And I know many Lojbanists (most of which prefer t= o stay out of this community to preserve their sanity) who are bothered too= .

=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi et= c.



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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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