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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:29:10 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+APMZbXATy1_xAUouvqxTiQr0sZ06x7XxmLJ-WBxVEWGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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(snip)

> Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it's stability.
>>>
>>
>> Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long abandoned, for
>> Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason some people learn La=
tin
>> is for academic purposes, since it has a great share in the body of
>> scientific works our world has produced.
>>
>
> Latin is a live language  btw.
> As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.
>

(see (1))

I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.
>>>
>>
>> Languages change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is
>> truly future-proof; the only approach that guarantees success is to embr=
ace
>> change. Dismissing change on grounds of there being change in the first
>> place is, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so p=
assionate
>> about keeping the language in its current form, why not declare it to be=
 a
>> success and, most importantly, move on to more important things in our
>> lives?
>>
> I don't consider any notion of "success" for Lojban as being important. N=
o
> teleology sorry.
>

Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it
doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=
=E2=80=99ve
suggested before, move on.

> > Isn't that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and the e=
xact statement
of what you want?

> Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the language so that
> new learners will never catch up
>

(ad (1))

I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are
encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the
language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand why =
you
don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2=80=
=98new and
foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo} =
=E2=80=94 yet, they too
are something a learner will have to catch up with. However, any attempts
to introduce changes to the language which simplify it and remedy all the
overengineering are always turned down by the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 la=
nguage =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99.
This causes the language to drift away from what people actually use =E2=80=
=94
slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that this will turn agains=
t you.

Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow Conversation
of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain word that the
other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation devolves into a
mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=80=
=99t suspect that they
were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) T=
his is a
pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what c=
mavo was the
offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cm=
avo that=E2=80=99s used
all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being first
introduced?

Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says
=E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are rea=
sons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English
speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the deepest
strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the
language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the correct
ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude.

Also, Dotside.

All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have
bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language X
(where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s no=
 change
and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. The
only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is that
you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release while=
 others
move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent Lojb=
anists
of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still think of the=
mselves
as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent amon=
g the
members of the community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in it,
at least within the official venues like the IRC channel.

I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y=E2=
=80=99all=E2=80=99s
utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the needs=
 of those who=E2=80=99ve
had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it run dry. I
already had been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I think,
had managed to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh? =
I see that it
must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) about what
Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.

Instead of just using it, as one does.

=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.

>

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<div><div><div dir=3D"auto">(snip)</div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"></div></div></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it&#39;s stability.</div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Latin, too, is a stable language. But it&#39;=
s been long abandoned, for Romance languages had sprung about. The only rea=
son some people learn Latin is for academic purposes, since it has a great =
share in the body of scientific works our world has produced.</div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Latin is a live language=C2=A0 btw.</d=
iv><div>As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.</div></div>=
</blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">(see =
(1))</div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;m=
argin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incom=
patibility as a drawback.=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Languages change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is trul=
y future-proof; the only approach that guarantees success is to embrace cha=
nge. Dismissing change on grounds of there being change in the first place =
is, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you&#39;re so passio=
nate about keeping the language in its current form, why not declare it to =
be a success and, most importantly, move on to more important things in our=
 lives?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I don&#39;t consider any not=
ion of &quot;success&quot; for Lojban as being important. No teleology sorr=
y.</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? I=
f it doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and,=
 as I=E2=80=99ve suggested before, move on.</div></div><div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">&gt; &gt; Isn&#39;t that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=
=A6 the opposite of what I want and the exact statement of what you want?</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sure. You are tryi=
ng to change and change and change the language so that new learners will n=
ever catch up=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></d=
iv><div><div dir=3D"auto">(ad (1))</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We ar=
e encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the lan=
guage, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand why you=
 don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2=
=80=98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaip=
ti}, {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too are something a learner will have to c=
atch up with. However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language wh=
ich simplify it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down b=
y the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This cau=
ses the language to drift away from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slow=
ly but surely =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that this will turn against yo=
u.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Here, let me try and =
make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow Conversation of 1995? One of the c=
onversants happens to use a certain word that the other isn=E2=80=99t famil=
iar with, and so the conversation devolves into a mini-argument about those=
 =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they wer=
e totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This=
 is a pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know =
what cmavo was the offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would yo=
u imagine that a cmavo that=E2=80=99s used all the time nowadays had people=
 against it when it was being first introduced?</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">Pretend English is our language of interest. Every =
time somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=
=80=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English speaker you MUST lash=
 out at them and tell them they belong to the deepest strata of hell. In ot=
her words, if you have opinions about what the language should be like, you=
 MUST make it clear that those are the correct ones. Good luck making frien=
ds with this sort of attitude.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Also, Dotside.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Al=
l this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have bitch=
ed, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language X (whe=
re X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s no cha=
nge and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. T=
he only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is t=
hat you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release w=
hile others move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most pr=
ominent Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them=
 still think of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=
=E2=80=99s so prominent among the members of the community ultimately makes=
 them want to quit engaging in it, at least within the official venues like=
 the IRC channel.=C2=A0<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, =
y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 =
and understand the needs of those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest impact on =
the community will eventually make it run dry. I already had been pretty li=
feless until recently, and that phase, I think, had managed to last for a c=
ouple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh? I see that it must be eithe=
r dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) about what Lojban should a=
nd shouldn=E2=80=99t be.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Instead of just using it, as one does.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></blockquote>
</div>

<p></p>

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