Received: from mail-yb1-f189.google.com ([209.85.219.189]:49224) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jNaNR-0000ZN-EE for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f189.google.com with SMTP id w15sf4531750ybp.16 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=qnVV2piGTS3poUOp7f49RqKHnnSSqdabdyIC+RlgJuE=; b=tYwYn5ATe1BjrS2ILaVqtFH+LyW0GFwxTjTdtBswpo4BYWYFhi5v2U9aCVosJRSRqK PzBE8kBx47b8qX+DiE3EITlsMlq1dOgLg8dBObepQwJqQubnND1IFnTixfxSkQahQWH8 Xs8MJsKDBLah538y463CLmTLDQURvEIXHqVaKWnUAO9P3GNQwd5/HJg9xhuLG/26u3GM UU58/GoONG+wrz/KY5k3yv3JibO532hDZr8Cyi5VF4CwhTk23gYUQz/U1MY3JYgnls7O okyCWRHVKWjNyy+hhcPjwaD5wK8jkqlpB6p3Q5AOG0oYiNJVpi8/Qi/aEGP+Kf9ajyfV f8Vg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=qnVV2piGTS3poUOp7f49RqKHnnSSqdabdyIC+RlgJuE=; b=QjLe40wNI84Piiz1KLtPtUaTWN+UhDVEbGNaM5fET7J8ga5CVoOhfnHXh6l6XatmiG m5xxn3tOYkk1ZoLWUCsj0pJQzsg87JShSQtDjrgKFc8+5dTjPqDya68BexJpZu4xb5uf 4FFwDvADaeyvA40kpr1SX5peGF/B0AEQRk+Ep6i0T0Tzqwlf9/0Qjb0depEPedRHm4QQ g+s5n9cLDg5r8pa2lbJ0g8zyxk5NWh9sS3eKr4OMH/892DGbFZfjE+5fWiXCkOVCQHXm WNbkIRbFMHSVabObuzFu7Z/LU/nkpKgT5wsXkfafusYZr8WA9hO7yBF50x4uVpUfDOSq Onjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=qnVV2piGTS3poUOp7f49RqKHnnSSqdabdyIC+RlgJuE=; b=ZBvVV2jcyPZc1CwxKyteNLe3jtLl5qnIEunEOTuOzohrgGshiv0lKwSPo3/MExe+c3 DyZFySk/VANfqHHH8xQpcf1LiAoWTRSqe7MgeRXqXHOc9Jx4HmA1Kh4f1PkdzfD83Dn4 uEfU+f+vhvVKxG5iKCQGPqzy9Z/waU4/GYvCg6vUBPnFihEDCXEAqMCzh4thOQhK0qzL bORqqt/zG9PVrEnHy0KmnNMTAd7pq/OB8LRsm3emrdhmmnYyaPtQS3J5V6agT7V+xKPx MewPF3UobZTlLBAFYhuQjtVgcqfjYEKXLy4kLLzGoxf1O7GjMI7oRtuGblGXqV16t3Sl W0sw== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYAttYKN2BspcUoDHeRSbBp9K61FM48KCpIPgTn+Q9wOdywQTA0 1aXEdnDjXoCaAJVtaLYWVlk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIywHA6cXY8khfZe9qFgWuWA+4Bw+IsbS0VDRBou2O0HxX+0tZ7uSuDkRseYcNV6/Ysml4cyg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:ddc3:: with SMTP id u186mr19525616ybg.383.1586689327145; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:15c9:: with SMTP id 192ls7229108ybv.6.gmail; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:9705:: with SMTP id d5mr20274290ybo.449.1586689326278; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:02:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <18776223.2757089.1586622570213.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <18776223.2757089.1586622570213@mail.yahoo.com> <6fe62be6-21b6-40b7-98b6-0f4e0072df47@googlegroups.com> <8eb60e09-2aa3-4e14-b37e-f716ea06ecfe@googlegroups.com> <1137a1b7-cd6f-4c7c-b2cc-f38e8b4abb3f@googlegroups.com> <59cebb85-184c-49ed-9556-438ca75de05f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_817_826546641.1586689325548" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_817_826546641.1586689325548 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_818_39077107.1586689325549" ------=_Part_818_39077107.1586689325549 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UTC+3, uakci escreveu: > > (snip) > >> Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it's stability. >>>> >>> >>> Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long abandoned, for=20 >>> Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason some people learn L= atin=20 >>> is for academic purposes, since it has a great share in the body of=20 >>> scientific works our world has produced. >>> >> >> Latin is a live language btw. >> As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged. >> > > (see (1)) > > I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.= =20 >>>> >>> >>> Languages change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is= =20 >>> truly future-proof; the only approach that guarantees success is to emb= race=20 >>> change. Dismissing change on grounds of there being change in the first= =20 >>> place is, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so = passionate=20 >>> about keeping the language in its current form, why not declare it to b= e a=20 >>> success and, most importantly, move on to more important things in our= =20 >>> lives? >>> >> I don't consider any notion of "success" for Lojban as being important.= =20 >> No teleology sorry. >> > > Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it=20 > doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as= I=E2=80=99ve=20 > suggested before, move on. > I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not=20 important. So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little importance.= =20 > > > > Isn't that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and the= exact statement=20 > of what you want? > >> Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the language so tha= t=20 >> new learners will never catch up=20 >> > > (ad (1)) > > I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are=20 > encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the=20 > language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand wh= y you=20 > don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2= =80=98new and=20 > foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo}= =E2=80=94 yet, they too=20 > are something a learner will have to catch up with. > That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged.=20 See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They will be= =20 ready for it. Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in the= =20 CLL will only lead to the community dying out. I can see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I=20 haven't witnessed any antagonism in fixing them. As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the language= =20 as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) that in fact=20 leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban were some= =20 programming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we could=20 ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it. =20 > However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which simplify= =20 > it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down by the=20 > =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes = the language to drift away from=20 > what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I real= ly am sure that=20 > this will turn against you. > What I think is of little importance too. I may speak xorlo or another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learners= =20 have none. They must first reach fluency. If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there will= =20 be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is already=20 happening). > Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow Conversatio= n=20 > of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain word that the=20 > other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation devolves into = a=20 > mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2= =80=99t suspect that they=20 > were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.)= This is a=20 > pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what= cmavo was the=20 > offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a = cmavo that=E2=80=99s used=20 > all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being first=20 > introduced? > That was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL 1.0= =20 standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows for that.= =20 I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I wouldn't= =20 recommend adding such new words into tutorials. However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here is= =20 the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should now=20 say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community lose those= =20 who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give some= =20 sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going to= =20 appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this is= =20 just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only=20 edition of the language. > > Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says=20 > =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are r= easons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English=20 > speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the deepes= t=20 > strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the=20 > language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the correc= t=20 > ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude. > English is not prescriptive. =20 > > Also, Dotside. > > All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have= =20 > bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language= X=20 > (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s = no change=20 > and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. The= =20 > only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is th= at=20 > you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release whi= le others=20 > move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent Lo= jbanists=20 > of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still think of t= hemselves=20 > as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent am= ong the=20 > members of the community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in i= t,=20 > at least within the official venues like the IRC channel.=20 > That's fine. They can leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and=20 Lojban taught them something so that they don't need either the language or= =20 the community anymore. And that's great since without tinkering more space will be provided for=20 new learners to come. =20 > > I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y= =E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s=20 > utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the nee= ds of those who=E2=80=99ve=20 > had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it run dry. > You put it right. I don't care of those who already learnt Lojban. I already had been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I think,= =20 > had managed to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh= ? I see that it=20 > must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) about what= =20 > Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.=20 > > Instead of just using it, as one does. > > =E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka. > >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= lojban/f1e41358-15f6-469a-9623-11725854d112%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_818_39077107.1586689325549 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UTC+3, ua= kci escreveu:
(snip)
<= /div>
Lojban even if f= ailed elsewhere shines here in it's stability.
<= br>
Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long aban= doned, for Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason some people = learn Latin is for academic purposes, since it has a great share in the bod= y of scientific works our world has produced.

Latin is a live language=C2=A0 btw.
As the C= LL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.

(see (1))
=

I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as = a drawback.=C2=A0

Languages cha= nge regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is truly future-proof= ; the only approach that guarantees success is to embrace change. Dismissin= g change on grounds of there being change in the first place is, in my opin= ion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so passionate about kee= ping the language in its current form, why not declare it to be a success a= nd, most importantly, move on to more important things in our lives?
I don't consider any notion of "s= uccess" for Lojban as being important. No teleology sorry.
=

Then = why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it doesn=E2= =80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=E2=80= =99ve suggested before, move on.

I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not i= mportant.
So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is= of little importance.=C2=A0

> > Isn'= t that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and the exact sta= tement of what you want?
Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the language s= o that new learners will never catch up=C2=A0

(ad (1))

I see this as the manifestation of th= e ultimate hypocrisy. We are encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabular= y is a core part of the language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don= =E2=80=99t understand why you don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of = disgust when people add =E2=80=98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla l= ike {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too are somethi= ng a learner will have to catch up with.

<= /div>
That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are = encouraged. See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. = They will be ready for it.

Whatever you/I/other fl= uent or non fluent speakers decide to change in the CLL will only lead to t= he community dying out.

I can see one important ex= ception to it: mistypes in English text. I haven't witnessed any antago= nism in fixing them.

As for fixing internal contra= dictions or adding new parts of the language as being official (sublanguage= s, dictionary, translations) that in fact leads only to the feeling of &quo= t;I will never make this". If Lojban were some programming framework s= upported by some la mikro softo company we could ignore that and say: learn= this ever-changing thing or leave it.
=C2=A0
However, any attempt= s to introduce changes to the language which simplify it and remedy all the= overengineering are always turned down by the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 l= anguage =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes the language to drift away fro= m what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I real= ly am sure that this will turn against you.
What I think is of little importance too.
I may spea= k xorlo or another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learners have none. = They must first reach fluency.
If existing fluent speakers don= 9;t stop tinkering seriously soon there will be fewer and fewer new learner= s coming (some assert this is already happening).

=

Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come= upon The Glasgow Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to u= se a certain word that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the co= nversation devolves into a mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cm= avo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they were totally serious with = it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This is a pinnacle of Lojba= n =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what cmavo was the offe= nder here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cmavo = that=E2=80=99s used all the time nowadays had people against it when it was= being first introduced?

That w= as before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL = 1.0 standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CL= L allows for that. I would mildly argue that such additions make learning h= arder. I wouldn't recommend adding such new words into tutorials.
=

However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization = could say " here is the new version of the language, instead of print = "hello" you should now say print("hello") ". This = would obviously make the community lose=C2=A0 those who bought the previous= edition of the Book but at the same time give some sense of bettering over= time. But given that no such committee is going to appear anytime soon (la= ck of technical and organisational skills) this is just my fantasy that can= be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only edition of the language.

=
Pretend English is our language of interest. Every = time somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2= =80=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English speaker you MUST lash= out at them and tell them they belong to the deepest strata of hell. In ot= her words, if you have opinions about what the language should be like, you= MUST make it clear that those are the correct ones. Good luck making frien= ds with this sort of attitude.

= English is not prescriptive.
=C2=A0

Als= o, Dotside.

All this is = proof that over the entire history of language, people have bitched, bitch,= and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language X (where X may b= e English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s no change and no= change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. The only fu= ture I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is that you=E2= =80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release while other= s move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent Lo= jbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still thi= nk of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s = so prominent among the members of the community ultimately makes them want = to quit engaging in it, at least within the official venues like the IRC ch= annel.=C2=A0

That's fin= e. They can leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban taugh= t them something so that they don't need either the language or the com= munity anymore.
And that's great since without tinkering more= space will be provided for new learners to come.
=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t know if I have mu= ch more to say. But most importantly, y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s utter inabili= ty to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the needs of those who= =E2=80=99ve had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it= run dry.

You put it right. I d= on't care of those who already learnt Lojban.

I already h= ad been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I think, had manage= d to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh? I see that= it must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) about wha= t Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.=C2=A0

=
Instead of just using it, as one does.

=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lo= jban/f1e41358-15f6-469a-9623-11725854d112%40googlegroups.com.
------=_Part_818_39077107.1586689325549-- ------=_Part_817_826546641.1586689325548--