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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:46:15 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=NHAiAoC-c5xtN2FkPi5Ddzto8cARCo8c0XA79jd-JV-g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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Where can I find out more about these other dialects of Lojban and the
supposed problems and their solutions?

stevo

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it's stability.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long abandoned, for
>>>> Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason some people learn =
Latin
>>>> is for academic purposes, since it has a great share in the body of
>>>> scientific works our world has produced.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Latin is a live language  btw.
>>> As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.
>>>
>>
>> (see (1))
>>
>> I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Languages change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is
>>>> truly future-proof; the only approach that guarantees success is to em=
brace
>>>> change. Dismissing change on grounds of there being change in the firs=
t
>>>> place is, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so=
 passionate
>>>> about keeping the language in its current form, why not declare it to =
be a
>>>> success and, most importantly, move on to more important things in our
>>>> lives?
>>>>
>>> I don't consider any notion of "success" for Lojban as being important.
>>> No teleology sorry.
>>>
>>
>> Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it
>> doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, a=
s I=E2=80=99ve
>> suggested before, move on.
>>
>
> I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not
> important.
> So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little importance.
>
>>
>> > > Isn't that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and th=
e exact statement
>> of what you want?
>>
>>> Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the language so
>>> that new learners will never catch up
>>>
>>
>> (ad (1))
>>
>> I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are
>> encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the
>> language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand w=
hy you
>> don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2=
=80=98new and
>> foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo=
} =E2=80=94 yet, they too
>> are something a learner will have to catch up with.
>>
>
> That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged.
> See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They will =
be
> ready for it.
>
> Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in th=
e
> CLL will only lead to the community dying out.
>
> I can see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I
> haven't witnessed any antagonism in fixing them.
>
> As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the language
> as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) that in fact
> leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban were som=
e
> programming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we could
> ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it.
>
>
>> However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which simplif=
y
>> it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down by the
>> =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes=
 the language to drift away from
>> what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I rea=
lly am sure that
>> this will turn against you.
>>
>
> What I think is of little importance too.
> I may speak xorlo or another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learners
> have none. They must first reach fluency.
> If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there wil=
l
> be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is already
> happening).
>
>
>
>> Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow
>> Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain wo=
rd
>> that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation devo=
lves into a
>> mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=
=80=99t suspect that they
>> were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.=
) This is a
>> pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know wha=
t cmavo was the
>> offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a=
 cmavo that=E2=80=99s used
>> all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being first
>> introduced?
>>
>
> That was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL 1.=
0
> standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows for tha=
t.
> I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I wouldn't
> recommend adding such new words into tutorials.
>
> However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here i=
s
> the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should now
> say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community lose  those
> who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give som=
e
> sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going t=
o
> appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this is
> just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only
> edition of the language.
>
>>
>> Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says
>> =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are =
reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English
>> speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the deepe=
st
>> strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the
>> language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the corre=
ct
>> ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude.
>>
>
> English is not prescriptive.
>
>
>>
>> Also, Dotside.
>>
>> All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have
>> bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak languag=
e X
>> (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s=
 no change
>> and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. Th=
e
>> only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is t=
hat
>> you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release wh=
ile others
>> move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent L=
ojbanists
>> of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still think of =
themselves
>> as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent a=
mong the
>> members of the community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in =
it,
>> at least within the official venues like the IRC channel.
>>
>
> That's fine. They can leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and
> Lojban taught them something so that they don't need either the language =
or
> the community anymore.
> And that's great since without tinkering more space will be provided for
> new learners to come.
>
>
>>
>> I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y=
=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s
>> utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the ne=
eds of those who=E2=80=99ve
>> had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it run dry.
>>
>
> You put it right. I don't care of those who already learnt Lojban.
>
> I already had been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I
>> think, had managed to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=
=99, huh? I see
>> that it must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) ab=
out
>> what Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.
>>
>> Instead of just using it, as one does.
>>
>> =E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.
>>
>>> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">Where can I find out more about these other dialects of Lojb=
an and the supposed problems and their solutions?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo</d=
iv></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 6:02 AM Gleki Arxokuna &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gle=
ki.is.my.name@gmail.com">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br=
>Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UTC+3, uakci  escreveu:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir=3D"auto">(snip)<=
/div></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div></div></div><div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lojban=
 even if failed elsewhere shines here in it&#39;s stability.</div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>Latin, too, is a stable language. But it&#39;s been=
 long abandoned, for Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason so=
me people learn Latin is for academic purposes, since it has a great share =
in the body of scientific works our world has produced.</div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Latin is a live language=C2=A0 btw.</div><di=
v>As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.</div></div></bloc=
kquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">(see (1))</=
div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I feel no bloat in it a=
t all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.=C2=A0</div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Languages change regardless of backward compatibil=
ity. No solution is truly future-proof; the only approach that guarantees s=
uccess is to embrace change. Dismissing change on grounds of there being ch=
ange in the first place is, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then=
 if you&#39;re so passionate about keeping the language in its current form=
, why not declare it to be a success and, most importantly, move on to more=
 important things in our lives?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I do=
n&#39;t consider any notion of &quot;success&quot; for Lojban as being impo=
rtant. No teleology sorry.</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">Then why are you engaging in a discussion =
about Lojban failing? If it doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might a=
s well stop caring and, as I=E2=80=99ve suggested before, move on.</div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I initially replied to pycyn. That what=
ever the goals were they are not important.</div><div>So I&#39;m engaging i=
n it just to say that the topic is of little importance.=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">&gt; &gt; Isn&#39;t that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the oppo=
site of what I want and the exact statement of what you want?</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sure. You a=
re trying to change and change and change the language so that new learners=
 will never catch up=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div></div><div><div dir=3D"auto">(ad (1))</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy=
. We are encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of =
the language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand =
why you don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people ad=
d =E2=80=98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, =
{kaipti}, {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too are something a learner will have=
 to catch up with.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s s=
tability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged. See the CL=
L. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They will be ready for=
 it.</div><div><br></div><div>Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent spe=
akers decide to change in the CLL will only lead to the community dying out=
.</div><div><br></div><div>I can see one important exception to it: mistype=
s in English text. I haven&#39;t witnessed any antagonism in fixing them.</=
div><div><br></div><div>As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new=
 parts of the language as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, transla=
tions) that in fact leads only to the feeling of &quot;I will never make th=
is&quot;. If Lojban were some programming framework supported by some la mi=
kro softo company we could ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing th=
ing or leave it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"> However, any attempts to introduce ch=
anges to the language which simplify it and remedy all the overengineering =
are always turned down by the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98=
lobby=E2=80=99. This causes the language to drift away from what people act=
ually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that t=
his will turn against you.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What=
 I think is of little importance too.</div><div>I may speak xorlo or anothe=
r crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learners have none. They must first r=
each fluency.</div><div>If existing fluent speakers don&#39;t stop tinkerin=
g seriously soon there will be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some as=
sert this is already happening).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Gl=
asgow Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain=
 word that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation d=
evolves into a mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99=
. (I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they were totally serious with it, but that=
=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This is a pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98c=
ancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what cmavo was the offender here? I=
t=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cmavo that=E2=80=
=99s used all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being fir=
st introduced?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That was before =
Lojban got into &quot;release&quot; state. But even from the CLL 1.0 standp=
oint addition of some &quot;su&#39;oi&quot; cmavo is okay, the CLL allows f=
or that. I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I w=
ouldn&#39;t recommend adding such new words into tutorials.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say =
&quot; here is the new version of the language, instead of print &quot;hell=
o&quot; you should now say print(&quot;hello&quot;) &quot;. This would obvi=
ously make the community lose=C2=A0 those who bought the previous edition o=
f the Book but at the same time give some sense of bettering over time. But=
 given that no such committee is going to appear anytime soon (lack of tech=
nical and organisational skills) this is just my fantasy that can be safely=
 ignored. Better to stick to the only edition of the language.</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time =
somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=
=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English speaker you MUST lash ou=
t at them and tell them they belong to the deepest strata of hell. In other=
 words, if you have opinions about what the language should be like, you MU=
ST make it clear that those are the correct ones. Good luck making friends =
with this sort of attitude.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Eng=
lish is not prescriptive.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A=
lso, Dotside.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">All this i=
s proof that over the entire history of language, people have bitched, bitc=
h, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language X (where X may=
 be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s no change and =
no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. The only =
future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is that you=
=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release while ot=
hers move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent=
 Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still =
think of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=
=99s so prominent among the members of the community ultimately makes them =
want to quit engaging in it, at least within the official venues like the I=
RC channel.=C2=A0<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That&#39;=
s fine. They can leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban =
taught them something so that they don&#39;t need either the language or th=
e community anymore.</div><div>And that&#39;s great since without tinkering=
 more space will be provided for new learners to come.</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto">=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don=E2=80=99t know if=
 I have much more to say. But most importantly, y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s utt=
er inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the needs of=
 those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest impact on the community will eventual=
ly make it run dry.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You put it =
right. I don&#39;t care of those who already learnt Lojban.</div><div><br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"> I already had been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I th=
ink, had managed to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, =
huh? I see that it must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: deba=
cles) about what Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.=C2=A0</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Instead of just using it, as one doe=
s.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=
=C3=AD ka.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></blockquote>
</div>
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