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Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:54:56 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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 Oh, my! =C2=A0I merely meant to drop a friendly reminder that Lojban could=
 not achieve its goal as presently constituted. =C2=A0I learn (I=E2=80=99ve=
 been away a while) Lojbanists (of some sort or other or maybe all) no long=
er car about its primary goal, monoparsing, but are concerned to make a via=
ble language out of the scraps. =C2=A0My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGi=
ven that Lojban no longer strives for monparsing, what reason is there to c=
ontinue working on it or learning it?=E2=80=9D =C2=A0In the past, all the g=
rotesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar could be justified as necessa=
ry for the Great Goal. =C2=A0But now that that Goal is gone, they merely co=
nstitute needless complexities that make learning the language even harder.=
 =C2=A0Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God forbid you should use=
 the wrong one, even though it no longer makes a crucial difference) (=E2=
=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large number, not meant to be ac=
curate) would make the language easier to learn and do that systematically =
for all the word classes would eventually get to something manageable. But =
there would still be no reason to learn it, because it doesn=E2=80=99t do a=
nything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in a novel and re=
vealing way. =C2=A0If I counted right, there are at least nine version of L=
ojban floating around with adherents. =C2=A0The winnowing process is presum=
ably already at work and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy=
 guy in a garret. =C2=A0Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!). =C2=
=A0Some have decent sized (say 12) groups here and there. What can any of t=
hese offer to newbies or possible converts to get them to join? =C2=A0Nothi=
ng, really. =C2=A0So, they will all fade away (the LLG section running on o=
n inertia).I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and learn toki po=
na (maybe start Friday night and leave a little time over breakfast on Mond=
ay). You will have a new language with a purpose (you can choose from half =
a dozen at least). =C2=A0And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to constantl=
y snipe at tiny infractions by your colinguals and to get into abstruse deb=
ate about details of grammar. =C2=A0After all, I am in the middle of it. =
=C2=A0
    On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 06:02:08 AM CDT, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my=
.name@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
=20

Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UTC+3, uakci escreveu:
(snip)


Lojban even if failed elsewhere shines here in it's stability.

Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long abandoned, for Romance=
 languages had sprung about. The only reason some people learn Latin is for=
 academic purposes, since it has a great share in the body of scientific wo=
rks our world has produced.

Latin is a live language=C2=A0 btw.As the CLL puts it creation of new words=
 is encouraged.

(see (1))


I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.=C2=
=A0

Languages change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is truly=
 future-proof; the only approach that guarantees success is to embrace chan=
ge. Dismissing change on grounds of there being change in the first place i=
s, in my opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so passionate =
about keeping the language in its current form, why not declare it to be a =
success and, most importantly, move on to more important things in our live=
s?

I don't consider any notion of "success" for Lojban as being important. No =
teleology sorry.

Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it doesn=
=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=E2=
=80=99ve suggested before, move on.

I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not imp=
ortant.So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little import=
ance.=C2=A0

> > Isn't that=E2=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and the e=
xact statement of what you want?
Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the language so that n=
ew learners will never catch up=C2=A0

(ad (1))
I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are encourage=
d to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the language, but =
no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand why you don=E2=80=
=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2=80=98new an=
d foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinmo}=
 =E2=80=94 yet, they too are something a learner will have to catch up with=
.

That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged. Se=
e the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They will be r=
eady for it.
Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in the =
CLL will only lead to the community dying out.
I can see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I haven'=
t witnessed any antagonism in fixing them.
As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the language a=
s being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) that in fact lead=
s only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban were some prog=
ramming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we could ignore =
that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it.=C2=A0
 However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which simplify =
it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down by the =E2=80=
=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes the lang=
uage to drift away from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surel=
y =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that this will turn against you.

What I think is of little importance too.I may speak xorlo or another crazy=
 dialect. Thats my choice. New learners have none. They must first reach fl=
uency.If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there=
 will be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is already h=
appening).


Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow Conversation =
of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain word that the othe=
r isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation devolves into a mini=
-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2=80=99t =
suspect that they were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it w=
ent in the end.) This is a pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=
=99, and do you know what cmavo was the offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=
=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cmavo that=E2=80=99s used all the ti=
me nowadays had people against it when it was being first introduced?

That was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL 1.0 =
standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows for that.=
 I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I wouldn't =
recommend adding such new words into tutorials.
However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here is =
the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should now sa=
y print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community lose=C2=A0 thos=
e who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give som=
e sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going t=
o appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this is=
 just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only ed=
ition of the language.

Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says =E2=
=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are reason=
s=E2=80=99, as a fellow English speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell =
them they belong to the deepest strata of hell. In other words, if you have=
 opinions about what the language should be like, you MUST make it clear th=
at those are the correct ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of a=
ttitude.

English is not prescriptive.=C2=A0

Also, Dotside.
All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have bit=
ched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak language X (w=
here X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99s no c=
hange and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all.=
 The only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is=
 that you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release=
 while others move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most =
prominent Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of th=
em still think of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude tha=
t=E2=80=99s so prominent among the members of the community ultimately make=
s them want to quit engaging in it, at least within the official venues lik=
e the IRC channel.=C2=A0


That's fine. They can leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lo=
jban taught them something so that they don't need either the language or t=
he community anymore.And that's great since without tinkering more space wi=
ll be provided for new learners to come.=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y=E2=
=80=99all=E2=80=99s utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and =
understand the needs of those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest impact on the =
community will eventually make it run dry.

You put it right. I don't care of those who already learnt Lojban.

 I already had been pretty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I think=
, had managed to last for a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh=
? I see that it must be either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacle=
s) about what Lojban should and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.=C2=A0
Instead of just using it, as one does.
=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.


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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpfdfb9dc4yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Oh, my! &nbsp;I merely meant=
 to drop a friendly reminder that Lojban could not achieve its goal as pres=
ently constituted. &nbsp;I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been away a while) Lojbanist=
s (of some sort or other or maybe all) no longer car about its primary goal=
, monoparsing, but are concerned to make a viable language out of the scrap=
s. &nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">My immediate question=
 is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban no longer strives for monparsing, what reas=
on is there to continue working on it or learning it?=E2=80=9D &nbsp;In the=
 past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar could be just=
ified as necessary for the Great Goal. &nbsp;But now that that Goal is gone=
, they merely constitute needless complexities that make learning the langu=
age even harder. &nbsp;Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God forbi=
d you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer makes a crucial di=
fference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large number, not =
meant to be accurate) would make the language easier to learn and do that s=
ystematically for all the word classes would eventually get to something ma=
nageable. But there would still be no reason to learn it, because it doesn=
=E2=80=99t do anything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in=
 a novel and revealing way. &nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fal=
se">If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating =
around with adherents. &nbsp;The winnowing process is presumably already at=
 work and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garre=
t. &nbsp;Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!). &nbsp;Some have dece=
nt sized (say 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to new=
bies or possible converts to get them to join? &nbsp;Nothing, really. &nbsp=
;So, they will all fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).</div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I recommend that all of you take a w=
eekend off and learn toki pona (maybe start Friday night and leave a little=
 time over breakfast on Monday). You will have a new language with a purpos=
e (you can choose from half a dozen at least). &nbsp;And you don=E2=80=99t =
lose the rights to constantly snipe at tiny infractions by your colinguals =
and to get into abstruse debate about details of grammar. &nbsp;After all, =
I am in the middle of it. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_6871590184" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Sunday, April 12, 2020, 06:02:08 AM CDT, Gleki Arxok=
una &lt;gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"yiv4676813864"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br cl=
ear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 12:30:07 UT=
C+3, uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;=
"><div><div><div>(snip)</div></div><div><div class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_qu=
ote"></div></div></div><div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"yiv=
4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lojban even if fai=
led elsewhere shines here in it's stability.</div></blockquote><div><br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div>Latin, too, is a stable language. But it's been long=
 abandoned, for Romance languages had sprung about. The only reason some pe=
ople learn Latin is for academic purposes, since it has a great share in th=
e body of scientific works our world has produced.</div></div></div></block=
quote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Latin is a live language&nbsp; btw=
.</div><div>As the CLL puts it creation of new words is encouraged.</div></=
div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><div>(see (1))</d=
iv></div><div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813=
864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddi=
ng-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote"><blockqu=
ote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv>I feel no bloat in it at all but backward incompatibility as a drawback.=
&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Languages=
 change regardless of backward compatibility. No solution is truly future-p=
roof; the only approach that guarantees success is to embrace change. Dismi=
ssing change on grounds of there being change in the first place is, in my =
opinion, hilariously wrong =E2=80=94 then if you're so passionate about kee=
ping the language in its current form, why not declare it to be a success a=
nd, most importantly, move on to more important things in our lives?<br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I don't consider any notion=
 of "success" for Lojban as being important. No teleology sorry.</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><div>Then why are yo=
u engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it doesn=E2=80=99t matt=
er to you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=E2=80=99ve suggeste=
d before, move on.</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><d=
iv>I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not =
important.</div><div>So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of=
 little importance.&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;"><div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&gt; &gt; Isn't that=E2=
=80=A6 like=E2=80=A6 the opposite of what I want and the exact statement of=
 what you want?</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div>Sure. You are trying to change and change and change the lan=
guage so that new learners will never catch up&nbsp;</div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><div>(ad (1))</div><div><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div>I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypoc=
risy. We are encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part=
 of the language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t underst=
and why you don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when peopl=
e add =E2=80=98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauc=
a}, {kaipti}, {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too are something a learner will =
have to catch up with.</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div>That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encoura=
ged. See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They wi=
ll be ready for it.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Whatever you/I/=
other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in the CLL will only l=
ead to the community dying out.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I c=
an see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I haven't w=
itnessed any antagonism in fixing them.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div>As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the langu=
age as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) that in fact=
 leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban were some=
 programming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we could ig=
nore that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it.</div><div>&n=
bsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;=
margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div> =
However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which simplify i=
t and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down by the =E2=80=
=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes the lang=
uage to drift away from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surel=
y =E2=80=94 and I really am sure that this will turn against you.</div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>What I think is of little=
 importance too.</div><div>I may speak xorlo or another crazy dialect. That=
s my choice. New learners have none. They must first reach fluency.</div><d=
iv>If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there wi=
ll be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is already happ=
ening).</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:=
0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div>Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glas=
gow Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain w=
ord that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation dev=
olves into a mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. =
(I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they were totally serious with it, but that=
=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This is a pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98c=
ancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what cmavo was the offender here? I=
t=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cmavo that=E2=80=
=99s used all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being fir=
st introduced?</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>T=
hat was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL 1.0 s=
tandpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows for that. =
I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I wouldn't r=
ecommend adding such new words into tutorials.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"=
></div><div>However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could sa=
y " here is the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you s=
hould now say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community los=
e&nbsp; those who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same t=
ime give some sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committe=
e is going to appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational ski=
lls) this is just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to=
 the only edition of the language.</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex;"><div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Pretend English =
is our language of interest. Every time somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=
=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a =
fellow English speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong =
to the deepest strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about w=
hat the language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the =
correct ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude.</div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>English is not prescript=
ive.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex;"><div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Also, Dotside.</div><div><br =
clear=3D"none"></div><div>All this is proof that over the entire history of=
 language, people have bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ou=
ght to speak language X (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend=
 that there=E2=80=99s no change and no change is needed and one can get by =
without any change at all. The only future I foresee for you and the people=
 who share your mindset is that you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your=
 Lojban v1.0 Final Release while others move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved=
 on, and so have the most prominent Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=
=99m pretty sure most of them still think of themselves as Lojbanists; howe=
ver, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent among the members of th=
e community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in it, at least wit=
hin the official venues like the IRC channel.&nbsp;<br clear=3D"none"></div=
></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>That's fine. They ca=
n leave. Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban taught them som=
ething so that they don't need either the language or the community anymore=
.</div><div>And that's great since without tinkering more space will be pro=
vided for new learners to come.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"=
yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></=
div><div>I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importan=
tly, y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=
=80=99 and understand the needs of those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest imp=
act on the community will eventually make it run dry.</div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>You put it right. I don't care of tho=
se who already learnt Lojban.</div><div class=3D"yiv4676813864yqt7643481864=
" id=3D"yiv4676813864yqtfd45344"><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote =
class=3D"yiv4676813864gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div> I already had been pre=
tty lifeless until recently, and that phase, I think, had managed to last f=
or a couple years. =E2=80=98Impressive=E2=80=99, huh? I see that it must be=
 either dead air or vain debates (or rather: debacles) about what Lojban sh=
ould and shouldn=E2=80=99t be.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><di=
v>Instead of just using it, as one does.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div>=E2=80=94 Mi Hoashi j=C3=AD ka.</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv46768138=
64gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div></div></blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"yiv4676813864yqt7643481864" id=3D"yi=
v4676813864yqtfd78572">

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