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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 16:26:48 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+AYFP8bYCCM2FDheZNs5WkzqtqXmSF8ri8eFUEsw+61Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails
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Hi, OP!

niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 15:55 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> napisa=C5=82(a):

> Oh, my!  I merely meant to drop a friendly reminder that Lojban could not
> achieve its goal as presently constituted.
>

I think it's time somebody did that.


> I learn (I=E2=80=99ve been away a while) Lojbanists (of some sort or othe=
r or
> maybe all) no longer car about its primary goal, monoparsing, but are
> concerned to make a viable language out of the scraps.
>

You might think this is having your priorities upside down, but you can't
advertise a language that satisfies appealing property X (in this case, X =
=3D
monoparsing) while sacrificing its usability.


> My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban no longer strives fo=
r
> monparsing, what reason is there to continue working on it or learning it=
?=E2=80=9D
>
>

As I've stated in my previous replies in this thread, I think there's none.
There are new loglangs out there which deserve more attention and whose
setup is way healthier than the current one; not to sound my own horn, but
Toaq is one example of this. (The author is currently working on a full
linguistic grammar of the language; I'm quite excited for what's to come.)
You're welcome to join :)


> In the past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and grammar could
> be justified as necessary for the Great Goal.  But now that that Goal is
> gone, they merely constitute needless complexities that make learning the
> language even harder.  Stripping away the 47 kinds of commas (and God
> forbid you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer makes a
> crucial difference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously large =
number, not meant
> to be accurate) would make the language easier to learn and do that
> systematically for all the word classes would eventually get to something
> manageable.
>

Perhaps =E2=80=98making a viable language out of the scraps=E2=80=99 is a v=
ain task to
embark on after all =E2=80=94 why not start from the ground up?


> But there would still be no reason to learn it, because it doesn=E2=80=99=
t do
> anything that English (etc.) doesn=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in a novel and=
 revealing
> way.
>

I have to disagree somewhat. As much as I bash Lojban for how it's
organized and how much the leadership and the ones of kin do to fend off
criticism, learning Lojban was a groundbreaking event of my life =E2=80=94 =
it
changed the way I thought of phenomena. (Perhaps now is the time for
something else than a revolutionary language =E2=80=94 perhaps something li=
ke
Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit=E2=80=A6). However, languages have goals, a=
nd if
the only goal a language has is to be a {mencti}-able curiosity, then I
agree.


> If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating
> around with adherents.  The winnowing process is presumably already at wo=
rk
> and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garret.
> Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).  Some have decent sized (sa=
y
> 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to newbies or
> possible converts to get them to join?  Nothing, really.  So, they will a=
ll
> fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).
>

I've proposed calling LLG Lojban =E2=80=98Base Lojban=E2=80=99 (cf. last em=
ail). However,
power corrupts, which is what ultimately leads to what we have now: the
=E2=80=98community=E2=80=99 running on dirges of internet fame (remember th=
at xkcd strip
from 157 years ago?) and some misconceptions that you'd acquire as you read
Lojban's (unfulfilled) mission statement. Those who want to unite will
unite =E2=80=94 I do speak Lojban with a couple of friends. Even though it =
might
not be as much fun as spending time in a large-ish community and doing good
deeds there (like translations =E2=80=94 something we all like), it's still=
 better
than the status quo where people who dare disagree with the one and only
dialect are to screw off.


> I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and learn toki pona (maybe
> start Friday night and leave a little time over breakfast on Monday). You
> will have a new language with a purpose (you can choose from half a dozen
> at least).  And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to constantly snipe at =
tiny
> infractions by your colinguals and to get into abstruse debate about
> details of grammar.  After all, I am in the middle of it.
>

I second that proposal (though any other language will do you good =E2=80=
=94 any X
such that X is not Lojban, that is).

=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi, OP!<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 15:55=C2=A0&#39;John=
 E Clifford&#39; via lojban &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">=
lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica N=
eue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, my!=C2=A0 I merely meant to drop a friendly re=
minder that Lojban could not achieve its goal as presently constituted.=C2=
=A0 </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it&#39;s tim=
e somebody did that.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helveti=
ca,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr">I learn (I=E2=80=99ve =
been away a while) Lojbanists (of some sort or other or maybe all) no longe=
r car about its primary goal, monoparsing, but are concerned to make a viab=
le language out of the scraps. =C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>You might think this is having your priorities upside down, bu=
t you can&#39;t advertise a language that satisfies appealing property X (i=
n this case, X =3D monoparsing) while sacrificing its usability.<br></div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
3px"><div dir=3D"ltr">My immediate question is, =E2=80=9CGiven that Lojban =
no longer strives for monparsing, what reason is there to continue working =
on it or learning it?=E2=80=9D =C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>As I&#39;ve stated in my previous replies in this thread, I th=
ink there&#39;s none. There are new loglangs out there which deserve more a=
ttention and whose setup is way healthier than the current one; not to soun=
d my own horn, but Toaq is one example of this. (The author is currently wo=
rking on a full linguistic grammar of the language; I&#39;m quite excited f=
or what&#39;s to come.) You&#39;re welcome to join :)<br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">In the past, all the grotesqueries of Lojban morphology and gram=
mar could be justified as necessary for the Great Goal.=C2=A0 But now that =
that Goal is gone, they merely constitute needless complexities that make l=
earning the language even harder.=C2=A0 Stripping away the 47 kinds of comm=
as (and God forbid you should use the wrong one, even though it no longer m=
akes a crucial difference) (=E2=80=9947=E2=80=99 is merely a ridiculously l=
arge number, not meant to be accurate) would make the language easier to le=
arn and do that systematically for all the word classes would eventually ge=
t to something manageable. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>Perhaps =E2=80=98making a viable language out of the scraps=E2=80=99 is =
a vain task to embark on after all =E2=80=94 why not start from the ground =
up?<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr">But there would still be no reason to l=
earn it, because it doesn=E2=80=99t do anything that English (etc.) doesn=
=E2=80=99t do, nor do it in a novel and revealing way.</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>I have to disagree somewhat. As much as I bas=
h Lojban for how it&#39;s organized and how much the leadership and the one=
s of kin do to fend off criticism, learning Lojban was a groundbreaking eve=
nt of my life =E2=80=94 it changed the way I thought of phenomena. (Perhaps=
 now is the time for something else than a revolutionary language =E2=80=94=
 perhaps something like Hegel&#39;s Phenomenology of Spirit=E2=80=A6). Howe=
ver, languages have goals, and if the only goal a language has is to be a {=
mencti}-able curiosity, then I agree.<br></div><div>=C2=A0 <br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
If I counted right, there are at least nine version of Lojban floating arou=
nd with adherents.=C2=A0 The winnowing process is presumably already at wor=
k and some of these are close to languages of one grumpy guy in a garret.=
=C2=A0 Some have people in LLG offices (big whoop!).=C2=A0 Some have decent=
 sized (say 12) groups here and there. What can any of these offer to newbi=
es or possible converts to get them to join?=C2=A0 Nothing, really.=C2=A0 S=
o, they will all fade away (the LLG section running on on inertia).</div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve proposed calling LLG Lo=
jban =E2=80=98Base Lojban=E2=80=99 (cf. last email). However, power corrupt=
s, which is what ultimately leads to what we have now: the =E2=80=98communi=
ty=E2=80=99 running on dirges of internet fame (remember that xkcd strip fr=
om 157 years ago?) and some misconceptions that you&#39;d acquire as you re=
ad Lojban&#39;s (unfulfilled) mission statement. Those who want to unite wi=
ll unite =E2=80=94 I do speak Lojban with a couple of friends. Even though =
it might not be as much fun as spending time in a large-ish community and d=
oing good deeds there (like translations =E2=80=94 something we all like), =
it&#39;s still better than the status quo where people who dare disagree wi=
th the one and only dialect are to screw off.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">I recommend that all of you take a weekend off and learn toki pona (mayb=
e start Friday night and leave a little time over breakfast on Monday). You=
 will have a new language with a purpose (you can choose from half a dozen =
at least).=C2=A0 And you don=E2=80=99t lose the rights to constantly snipe =
at tiny infractions by your colinguals and to get into abstruse debate abou=
t details of grammar.=C2=A0 After all, I am in the middle of it. =C2=A0</di=
v></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I second that proposal (thou=
gh any other language will do you good =E2=80=94 any X such that X is not L=
ojban, that is).</div><div><br></div><div>=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fas=
h=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.<br></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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