Received: from mail-yb1-f187.google.com ([209.85.219.187]:47144) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jNdeL-00008c-0j for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:56 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f187.google.com with SMTP id o132sf1318149ybc.14 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=qRG4Y7zoyWn6qUHxCav++fHnoPfsy+g1p0RTtHd24wY=; b=HgARQqfWsOocjIC0kWhQNchYUw2LJ1ExUpvTZA1ZZnveBGEu4hAQejtLvlYkSp2fXp kf0RA6q1ocAP7/5pyK3IHdiUHg3obJZKuIhJ0R6qRFMGcS7leswF86fPM92vfiKI1oXM h0V/sjNWYRRQhtV16Nl2cMg/AERpDaMIuZeJgBF44zYxUTdjmonX5f1G3maXeb1PtYzh KVJfY6y+aiANMEgZDsXM6XvZQ4IFbFiGRcOZDOdt+Twn1J3nrXceFEdINY5cImh2sm6p wrq+wwLKy6DZ49hqratww4oxeI4UZAFc7Fe2ihK0AYpzOv/ZOFcx+zEN4dq2A6Z8Tkky Hp6Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=qRG4Y7zoyWn6qUHxCav++fHnoPfsy+g1p0RTtHd24wY=; b=i1cu8hny4OTGmmfcXZNxKAnrTbp/wn6KF45DqdlYCI3htobXGALVUtjCSMr/Azh+ne OZnCntKdXEJprBZjg/AFt7SbulfNdazvfU8Ze59KzdKWLp8YecNrxXZ4YgY7StZRbWDH 7RjfgnZ0aYw5S7UM3hvfMVzkptyJM6oh9jNoGbBNkew8dU5nD2cGENvNKKvoyGz0RZrU m//bHWs+tyQnFOk0cJn8edJP5uLiaDpb6Rc9waCnzt9uT7FNle/yLOPMbUyfMb84eqWd z+uSN6+HT+c225WEuCnnYr3Qg00y7NQDEc72NsOuheMdENoUPM3UdWIAtzSaVvDBPzZ2 JYmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=qRG4Y7zoyWn6qUHxCav++fHnoPfsy+g1p0RTtHd24wY=; b=emJLHG1DxWuqiweKfXjGW0z68Oy+OAca/iIo0JaGL3xYPM2uIs5nlqe+gfcURfiLo4 TtpetFrHbq+QUOOheCnS41MEd12HE4CVfXTzjmQlZsI1pAsxHwH2daXGt6W0fGZdRx55 IMI09WZZy4hWRtmanA2sRCAuIhxC8uEyi3b4HKkSlElG57/u7rs5h1ATzqT4rq1oYzMn La9+hKfDrh54SEZbmjxJMTKxxLZpSnN3juBV/2J6oOFpEqL59GT41HU5lz2IRRiSHt1e 8BVoxZoY4wJnk3t8s3fOxqU2MHgoIX5otDZaMs/CvPGJ97K55juEJ3TXy4tMIw/fPp9m Or4g== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYp7G0BXO4Lkd5KN2RE89aorQ9PXGAYJlMhNe3DpYL6y7Xae0qP nwJk9x8eOzxAoGiiCByC/Yw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKSS07I8VbpYOYhtSYxXSwWn5t6xPjcQzRoHTAx34YOFtJY/DZH0GxRbDf58Ee9NN8/VGdZjQ== X-Received: by 2002:a25:740d:: with SMTP id p13mr22080007ybc.277.1586701906799; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:25d4:: with SMTP id l203ls7318235ybl.3.gmail; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:aa44:: with SMTP id s62mr21344921ybi.442.1586701905858; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:31:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban Message-Id: <6f981cd2-c659-4c7c-8cff-abc280106f89@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <18776223.2757089.1586622570213.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <18776223.2757089.1586622570213@mail.yahoo.com> <6fe62be6-21b6-40b7-98b6-0f4e0072df47@googlegroups.com> <8eb60e09-2aa3-4e14-b37e-f716ea06ecfe@googlegroups.com> <1137a1b7-cd6f-4c7c-b2cc-f38e8b4abb3f@googlegroups.com> <59cebb85-184c-49ed-9556-438ca75de05f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Why Lojban fails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1107_273304565.1586701905313" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1107_273304565.1586701905313 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1108_1659938353.1586701905314" ------=_Part_1108_1659938353.1586701905314 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 17:07:28 UTC+3, uakci escreveu: > > > > niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 13:02 Gleki Arxokuna = =20 > napisa=C5=82(a): > >> >> Then why are you engaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it=20 >>> doesn=E2=80=99t matter to you, then you might as well stop caring and, = as I=E2=80=99ve=20 >>> suggested before, move on. >>> >> >> I initially replied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not= =20 >> important. >> So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little importance= .=20 >> > > Sounds oxymoronic to me. > pycyn started with the goal of Lojban (logic, monoparsing...) But the=20 discussion shifted the topic a lot since then. =20 > =20 > >> I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are=20 >>> encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the= =20 >>> language, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand = why you=20 >>> don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add = =E2=80=98new and=20 >>> foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}, {uinm= o} =E2=80=94 yet, they too=20 >>> are something a learner will have to catch up with. >>> >> >> That's stability. Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged.= =20 >> See the CLL. New learners will know that if they read the CLL. They will= be=20 >> ready for it. >> > > They will also be ready for the inevitable, which is that there are=20 > commonly used grammatical structures which the CLL wilfully omits. > =20 > >> Whatever you/I/other fluent or non fluent speakers decide to change in= =20 >> the CLL will only lead to the community dying out. >> > =20 > *Your* community. > > And it's time I made a small correction. It's been a great mistake to cal= l=20 > you a community. Communities stick together, but this make-pretend=20 > community is entrenched in disputes. The departure of a great member of a= =20 > community typically comes off as worthy of grievance, but this community= =20 > has seen giants go. > You mean tinkerers? =20 > Communities aren't the sort of places that come and go; you come and stay= .=20 > Communities are something people contribute to through willpower and effo= rt=20 > and their precious man-hours (and woman-hours too), but the only experien= ce=20 > I've seen radiate from those who've tried and failed to incorporate=20 > themselves in the Lojbanic 'community' is one that's based on full-on=20 > unreciprocation. In a well-functioning community, people leave when they= =20 > think they've done their dues; in a pathological community like this one,= =20 > people leave because there's so much work to do that they're barred from= =20 > doing. > =20 > >> I can see one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I=20 >> haven't witnessed any antagonism in fixing them. >> > > Sure, spend effort on what matters least. Just to keep the *air* of=20 > business. > The business is done when certain goals are complete. This is not the goal= =20 of the language of course but the documentation. =20 > >> As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new parts of the languag= e=20 >> as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translations) that in fact= =20 >> leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this". If Lojban were so= me=20 >> programming framework supported by some la mikro softo company we could= =20 >> ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing thing or leave it. >> > > So you've jumped on the programming language train=E2=80=A6 oh boy do I h= ave a lot=20 > to say in this matter. > > Programming languages do improve. > =20 Usually in releases. When backward incompatible then it's clearly asserted= =20 so. Lojban community hasn't been aiming at such procedures. =20 > Java =E2=80=94 a language that's close to relic status =E2=80=94 has rece= ntly seen=20 > additions like lambdas, closures, anonymous classes=E2=80=A6 > additions =20 > Every programming language which does not wish to be yanked off the=20 > mainstream train of thought tries its best to include the essential parts= =20 > of what people want or need or can find in other places. We don't need to= =20 > force people to use Functional Programming concepts, but we might as well= =20 > leave those parts in so the ones who want it can have it and be happy. > > Have you ever heard about Elm? It, too, is governed by a man who believes= =20 > he can exercise absolute power. He, too, says things like =E2=80=98if you= don't do=20 > X the Y way, then why are you using our product?=E2=80=99. All in the nam= e of=20 > =E2=80=98being opinionated=E2=80=99. But we can be opinionated and permis= sive; we can=20 > foster diversity while maintaining a strong baseline; we can be descripti= ve=20 > without going all out. It can all be done, and the way strong Open Source= =20 > projects are led can tell us a lot about what we're doing wrong. I predic= t=20 > that Elm is going to get forked away from very soon; Lojban, with its=20 > despotic attitude and little room for variation, is going to be moved awa= y=20 > from. It's happening, and once it's reached full impetus, you won't be ab= le=20 > to stop it. > =20 > >> =20 >> >>> However, any attempts to introduce changes to the language which=20 >>> simplify it and remedy all the overengineering are always turned down b= y=20 >>> the =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This c= auses the language to drift away=20 >>> from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94 and= I really am sure=20 >>> that this will turn against you. >>> >> >> What I think is of little importance too. >> > > You say that, but you're very strong in asserting your opinions. If you= =20 > think you should bow to the Founding Fathers of the language and to the= =20 > demigods which preside in the committee (whatever its form of presentatio= n=20 > is), then you're doing this in vain. Language is to free thought, not=20 > enslave it. > Those demigods already paralyzed my activity. =20 > =20 > >> I may speak xorlo or another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learner= s=20 >> have none. They must first reach fluency. >> > > I don't have a problem with treating CLL Lojban as =E2=80=98baseline=E2= =80=99 Lojban. In=20 > fact, I wrote a little essay on the matter around two years ago [1], and= =20 > although it's hard for me to gauge the reactions, I can tell you that=20 > calling the =E2=80=98official dialect=E2=80=99 the =E2=80=98base(line) di= alect=E2=80=99 doesn't do said=20 > dialect any harm =E2=80=94 quite the opposite: it empowers people who wan= t to=20 > experiment to experiment, and gives this base dialect an incentive to=20 > develop =E2=80=94 slowly and rationally. > I have no problem with that. But I dohave a problem when newcomers are=20 being said "the CLL is obsolete". Who are you to say that? What do you=20 present in exchange? Nothing as clifford just said. =20 > >> If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering seriously soon there=20 >> will be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert this is already= =20 >> happening). >> > > See above. And the =E2=80=98tinkerers=E2=80=99 (as you've taken to callin= g them) aren't at=20 > fault; you're just getting a taste of your own medicine. > =20 > >> Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon The Glasgow=20 >>> Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a certain w= ord=20 >>> that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversation dev= olves into a=20 >>> mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2=80=99. (I don=E2= =80=99t suspect that they=20 >>> were totally serious with it, but that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end= .) This is a=20 >>> pinnacle of Lojban =E2=80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know wh= at cmavo was the=20 >>> offender here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that = a cmavo that=E2=80=99s used=20 >>> all the time nowadays had people against it when it was being first=20 >>> introduced? >>> >> >> That was before Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL= =20 >> 1.0 standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL allows fo= r=20 >> that. I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harder. I= =20 >> wouldn't recommend adding such new words into tutorials. >> > > You know what makes learning harder? Tons upon tons of cmavo which nobody= =20 > really uses and which could be phrased in simpler terms. Irregularities i= n=20 > gismu frames. > =20 No one is supposed to learn all the words of English or all the keywords of= =20 Java. =20 > Many, many internal distinctions like PU vs. VI vs. ZI vs. ZEhA vs. FAhA= =20 > vs. BAI. And if your point is that the CLL is a definitive source of=20 > knowledge about what Lojban 1.0 the forever version should look like, the= n=20 > what about xorlo? This starts to feel like I'm trying to persuade a=20 > biblical absolutism into rejecting the absoluteness of the Bible. And if= =20 > that's the case, the best approach is to walk away and leave them be; man= y=20 > people have done that so far. It's a telling sign. > As I said it's a nice sign. If you learned Lojban and want something else= =20 create something else. That's fine. > >> However, e.g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here= =20 >> is the new version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should = now=20 >> say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the community lose thos= e=20 >> who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the same time give so= me=20 >> sense of bettering over time. But given that no such committee is going = to=20 >> appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisational skills) this i= s=20 >> just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to stick to the only= =20 >> edition of the language. >> > > Python 3 was released in 2008, and the official deprecation date for=20 > Python 2 was announced to be 2020. Do you really think that 12 years isn'= t=20 > enough to hop over? > If there had been developers in Lojbanistan... There were none except for= =20 rlpowell who released the CLL 1.1=20 > You're making a moot point: in Python 3, `print` is made into a regular= =20 > function; previously, it was a keyword. This reduces complexity, which is= =20 > good =E2=80=94 it regularizes the treatment of `print` (what's so special= about it?=20 > why can't my procedure be made into a keyword?). The Python community has= =20 > encouraged switching over to v3 for a long time, yielding such tools as= =20 > 2to3. > > All this shows that change can be allowed, even if you prefer to keep it= =20 > slow. Today's language leaders' standpoint is not to attempt any change,= =20 > even as it wheezes past them. > =20 > >> Pretend English is our language of interest. Every time somebody says=20 >>> =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80=99 instead of =E2=80=98there are= reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English=20 >>> speaker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the deep= est=20 >>> strata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the=20 >>> language should be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the corr= ect=20 >>> ones. Good luck making friends with this sort of attitude. >>> >> >> English is not prescriptive. >> > > Languages themselves can't be descriptive or prescriptive; people and=20 > organizations and dictionaries are. For example, Polish is overseen by th= e=20 > RJP (the Polish Language Council), Finnish =E2=80=94 by KOTUS (Institute = for the=20 > Languages of Finland), and so on. But they're not to serve themselves, bu= t=20 > the people which actually use the languages. If a change becomes=20 > mainstream, the RJP will vote itself over to its side. > > It's important to remember that institutions like the LLG are not allowed= =20 > to patronize us or to tell us that =E2=80=98this is how we do things beca= use it's=20 > how we do them=E2=80=99. > True. =20 > It's the people who have the right to choose =E2=80=94 many have chosen a= gainst=20 > the absolutist bullshit. And that's why your community shrinks day by day= .=20 > =20 > >> All this is proof that over the entire history of language, people have= =20 >>> bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to speak langua= ge X=20 >>> (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there=E2=80=99= s no change=20 >>> and no change is needed and one can get by without any change at all. T= he=20 >>> only future I foresee for you and the people who share your mindset is = that=20 >>> you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.0 Final Release w= hile others=20 >>> move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so have the most prominent = Lojbanists=20 >>> of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure most of them still think of= themselves=20 >>> as Lojbanists; however, the toxic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent = among the=20 >>> members of the community ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in= it,=20 >>> at least within the official venues like the IRC channel.=20 >>> >> >> That's fine. They can leave. >> > > You don't have the right to control who's around. Definitely not if=20 > they're not misbehaving. So far, the reasons for leaving the Lojban=20 > community have been weariness and helplessness. And you can't expect to= =20 > deserve to be treated with due respect if people are ostracized and=20 > stigmatized. > I am myself ostracized by the LLG. =20 > =20 > >> Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban taught them something= =20 >> so that they don't need either the language or the community anymore. >> > > They don't need the bullcrap that surrounds both. That's what it is. Many= =20 > such people make these decisions against what their hearts tell them, but= =20 > sanity is more important than appeasement. > =20 > >> And that's great since without tinkering more space will be provided for= =20 >> new learners to come. >> > > There is space; there's little incentive. The halls have been decked with= =20 > spikes. > =20 > >> I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantly, y= =E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s=20 >>> utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80=99 and understand the n= eeds of those who=E2=80=99ve=20 >>> had the largest impact on the community will eventually make it run dry= . >>> >> >> You put it right. I don't care of those who already learnt Lojban. >> > > Dismissal is not the right path to take. As I said above, this *will* tur= n=20 > against you. > My role is of little importance. Once again, I don't care of fluent=20 speakers. They are free to go. Newcomers need help. The people united will never be defeated. > > ~ ~ ~ > > Perhaps it's time to do the right thing =E2=80=94 fork. > Please, create a new name for it. LoCCan3 of whatever =20 > Somebody (maybe me myself, who knows) should do God's work and rethink th= e=20 > grammar, rethink the vocab, rethink the approach. Because if you stick to= =20 > being stuck and you're stuck in being stuck, then the people watching who= =20 > have enough integrity to step back and distance themselves a little so=20 > they're not dragged into the pit will leave you be. And that's what you= =20 > want =E2=80=94 to be left alone. But a committee doesn't exist with a com= munity,=20 > and since the community has pretty much dispersed, the committee has fail= ed=20 > to serve it. > > I'm not going to drag this pointless rowing about for any longer; it's=20 > Easter and I'm supposed to rejoice with my family. All I can say is: if y= ou=20 > are sure you know what you're doing and you're so adamant to keep at it,= =20 > then power to you. However, it's you who'll face the consequences, and=20 > hurting others is one such consequence. > It's a volunteer work. I know what I'm doing. P.S. Sorry for not answering to all the replies. Some looked to me like=20 containing some harsh language. > =E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= lojban/6f981cd2-c659-4c7c-8cff-abc280106f89%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_1108_1659938353.1586701905314 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Em domingo, 12 de abril de 2020 17:07:28 UTC+3, ua= kci escreveu:


niedz., 12 kwi 2020 o 13:02=C2=A0Gleki Arxokuna <= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a):

Then why are you en= gaging in a discussion about Lojban failing? If it doesn=E2=80=99t matter t= o you, then you might as well stop caring and, as I=E2=80=99ve suggested be= fore, move on.

I initially repl= ied to pycyn. That whatever the goals were they are not important.
So I'm engaging in it just to say that the topic is of little importa= nce.=C2=A0

Sounds oxymoronic to= me.

pycyn started wi= th the goal of Lojban (logic, monoparsing...) But the discussion shifted th= e topic a lot since then.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I see this as the manifestation of the ultimate hypocrisy. We are= encouraged to create vocabulary, and vocabulary is a core part of the lang= uage, but no grammar proposals for you! I don=E2=80=99t understand why you = don=E2=80=99t have this visceral reaction of disgust when people add =E2=80= =98new and foreign=E2=80=99 zi=E2=80=99evla like {inde}, {mlauca}, {kaipti}= , {uinmo} =E2=80=94 yet, they too are something a learner will have to catc= h up with.

That's stability= . Lojban is declared that way. New words are encouraged. See the CLL. New l= earners will know that if they read the CLL. They will be ready for it.

They will also be ready for the in= evitable, which is that there are commonly used grammatical structures whic= h the CLL wilfully omits.
=C2=A0
Whatever you/I/other fluen= t or non fluent speakers decide to change in the CLL will only lead to the = community dying out.
=C2=A0
*Your* c= ommunity.

And it's time I made a small correct= ion. It's been a great mistake to call you a community. Communities sti= ck together, but this make-pretend community is entrenched in disputes. The= departure of a great member of a community typically comes off as worthy o= f grievance, but this community has seen giants go.

You mean tinkerers?
=C2=A0
Communities aren't the sort of places that come and go; y= ou come and stay. Communities are something people contribute to through wi= llpower and effort and their precious man-hours (and woman-hours too), but = the only experience I've seen radiate from those who've tried and f= ailed to incorporate themselves in the Lojbanic 'community' is one = that's based on full-on unreciprocation. In a well-functioning communit= y, people leave when they think they've done their dues; in a pathologi= cal community like this one, people leave because there's so much work = to do that they're barred from doing.
=C2=A0
I can see = one important exception to it: mistypes in English text. I haven't witn= essed any antagonism in fixing them.

Sure, spend effort on what matters least. Just to keep the *air* of b= usiness.

The business= is done when certain goals are complete. This is not the goal of the langu= age of course but the documentation.

=C2=A0
=
As for fixing internal contradictions or adding new p= arts of the language as being official (sublanguages, dictionary, translati= ons) that in fact leads only to the feeling of "I will never make this= ". If Lojban were some programming framework supported by some la mikr= o softo company we could ignore that and say: learn this ever-changing thin= g or leave it.

So you've ju= mped on the programming language train=E2=80=A6 oh boy do I have a lot to s= ay in this matter.

Programming languages do improv= e.
=C2=A0
Usually in releases.= When backward incompatible then it's clearly asserted so. Lojban commu= nity hasn't been aiming at such procedures.
=C2=A0
Java =E2=80=94 a language that's close to relic status = =E2=80=94 has recently seen additions like lambdas, closures, anonymous cla= sses=E2=80=A6

additions
=C2=A0
Every programming language which = does not wish to be yanked off the mainstream train of thought tries its be= st to include the essential parts of what people want or need or can find i= n other places. We don't need to force people to use Functional Program= ming concepts, but we might as well leave those parts in so the ones who wa= nt it can have it and be happy.

Have you ever hear= d about Elm? It, too, is governed by a man who believes he can exercise abs= olute power. He, too, says things like =E2=80=98if you don't do X the Y= way, then why are you using our product?=E2=80=99. All in the name of =E2= =80=98being opinionated=E2=80=99. But we can be opinionated and permissive;= we can foster diversity while maintaining a strong baseline; we can be des= criptive without going all out. It can all be done, and the way strong Open= Source projects are led can tell us a lot about what we're doing wrong= . I predict that Elm is going to get forked away from very soon; Lojban, wi= th its despotic attitude and little room for variation, is going to be move= d away from. It's happening, and once it's reached full impetus, yo= u won't be able to stop it.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
However, = any attempts to introduce changes to the language which simplify it and rem= edy all the overengineering are always turned down by the =E2=80=98official= =E2=80=99 language =E2=80=98lobby=E2=80=99. This causes the language to dri= ft away from what people actually use =E2=80=94 slowly but surely =E2=80=94= and I really am sure that this will turn against you.

What I think is of little importance too.

You say that, but you're very strong= in asserting your opinions. If you think you should bow to the Founding Fa= thers of the language and to the demigods which preside in the committee (w= hatever its form of presentation is), then you're doing this in vain. L= anguage is to free thought, not enslave it.

Those demigods already paralyzed my activity.
<= div>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I may speak xorlo or= another crazy dialect. Thats my choice. New learners have none. They must = first reach fluency.

I don'= t have a problem with treating CLL Lojban as =E2=80=98baseline=E2=80=99 Loj= ban. In fact, I wrote a little essay on the matter around two years ago [1]= , and although it's hard for me to gauge the reactions, I can tell you = that calling the =E2=80=98official dialect=E2=80=99 the =E2=80=98base(line)= dialect=E2=80=99 doesn't do said dialect any harm =E2=80=94 quite the = opposite: it empowers people who want to experiment to experiment, and give= s this base dialect an incentive to develop =E2=80=94 slowly and rationally= .

I have no problem w= ith that. But I dohave a problem when newcomers are being said "the CL= L is obsolete". Who are you to say that? What do you present in exchan= ge? Nothing as clifford just said.

<= /div>
=C2=A0
If existing fluent speakers don't stop tinkering ser= iously soon there will be fewer and fewer new learners coming (some assert = this is already happening).

See= above. And the =E2=80=98tinkerers=E2=80=99 (as you've taken to calling= them) aren't at fault; you're just getting a taste of your own med= icine.
=C2=A0
=
Here, let me try and make a point. Ever come upon Th= e Glasgow Conversation of 1995? One of the conversants happens to use a cer= tain word that the other isn=E2=80=99t familiar with, and so the conversati= on devolves into a mini-argument about those =E2=80=98bloody new cmavo=E2= =80=99. (I don=E2=80=99t suspect that they were totally serious with it, bu= t that=E2=80=99s how it went in the end.) This is a pinnacle of Lojban =E2= =80=98cancel culture=E2=80=99, and do you know what cmavo was the offender = here? It=E2=80=99s {bu=E2=80=99u}. Now would you imagine that a cmavo that= =E2=80=99s used all the time nowadays had people against it when it was bei= ng first introduced?

That was b= efore Lojban got into "release" state. But even from the CLL 1.0 = standpoint addition of some "su'oi" cmavo is okay, the CLL al= lows for that. I would mildly argue that such additions make learning harde= r. I wouldn't recommend adding such new words into tutorials.

You know what makes learning harder? Ton= s upon tons of cmavo which nobody really uses and which could be phrased in= simpler terms. Irregularities in gismu frames.
=C2=A0
No one is supposed to learn all the words of Engli= sh or all the keywords of Java.
=C2=A0
M= any, many internal distinctions like PU vs. VI vs. ZI vs. ZEhA vs. FAhA vs.= BAI. And if your point is that the CLL is a definitive source of knowledge= about what Lojban 1.0 the forever version should look like, then what abou= t xorlo? This starts to feel like I'm trying to persuade a biblical abs= olutism into rejecting the absoluteness of the Bible. And if that's the= case, the best approach is to walk away and leave them be; many people hav= e done that so far. It's a telling sign.

As I said it's a nice sign. If you learned Lojb= an and want something else create something else. That's fine.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">


However, e.= g. every 5 years some official organization could say " here is the ne= w version of the language, instead of print "hello" you should no= w say print("hello") ". This would obviously make the commun= ity lose=C2=A0 those who bought the previous edition of the Book but at the= same time give some sense of bettering over time. But given that no such c= ommittee is going to appear anytime soon (lack of technical and organisatio= nal skills) this is just my fantasy that can be safely ignored. Better to s= tick to the only edition of the language.

=
Python 3 was released in 2008, and the official deprecation date= for Python 2 was announced to be 2020. Do you really think that 12 years i= sn't enough to hop over?

<= div>If there had been developers in Lojbanistan... There were none except f= or rlpowell who released the CLL 1.1=C2=A0


You're making a moot point: in Python 3, `print` = is made into a regular function; previously, it was a keyword. This reduces= complexity, which is good =E2=80=94 it regularizes the treatment of `print= ` (what's so special about it? why can't my procedure be made into = a keyword?). The Python community has encouraged switching over to v3 for a= long time, yielding such tools as 2to3.

All this = shows that change can be allowed, even if you prefer to keep it slow. Today= 's language leaders' standpoint is not to attempt any change, even = as it wheezes past them.
=C2=A0
Pretend English is our language of= interest. Every time somebody says =E2=80=98there=E2=80=99s reasons=E2=80= =99 instead of =E2=80=98there are reasons=E2=80=99, as a fellow English spe= aker you MUST lash out at them and tell them they belong to the deepest str= ata of hell. In other words, if you have opinions about what the language s= hould be like, you MUST make it clear that those are the correct ones. Good= luck making friends with this sort of attitude.

English is not prescriptive.

Languages themselves can't be descriptive or prescripti= ve; people and organizations and dictionaries are. For example, Polish is o= verseen by the RJP (the Polish Language Council), Finnish =E2=80=94 by KOTU= S (Institute for the Languages of Finland), and so on. But they're not = to serve themselves, but the people which actually use the languages. If a = change becomes mainstream, the RJP will vote itself over to its side.
=

It's important to remember that institutions like t= he LLG are not allowed to patronize us or to tell us that =E2=80=98this is = how we do things because it's how we do them=E2=80=99.

True.
=C2=A0
It's the people who have the right to choose =E2=80=94 many have= chosen against the absolutist bullshit. And that's why your community = shrinks day by day.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
All this is proof that over the entire history of language, = people have bitched, bitch, and will be bitching about how we ought to spea= k language X (where X may be English or Lojban). But you pretend that there= =E2=80=99s no change and no change is needed and one can get by without any= change at all. The only future I foresee for you and the people who share = your mindset is that you=E2=80=99ll stay where you are with your Lojban v1.= 0 Final Release while others move on. I=E2=80=99ve already moved on, and so= have the most prominent Lojbanists of the last decade. I=E2=80=99m pretty = sure most of them still think of themselves as Lojbanists; however, the tox= ic attitude that=E2=80=99s so prominent among the members of the community = ultimately makes them want to quit engaging in it, at least within the offi= cial venues like the IRC channel.=C2=A0
That's fine. They can leave.
=
You don't have the right to control who's around. De= finitely not if they're not misbehaving. So far, the reasons for leavin= g the Lojban community have been weariness and helplessness. And you can= 9;t expect to deserve to be treated with due respect if people are ostraciz= ed and stigmatized.

I= am myself ostracized by the LLG.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
Maybe Lojban has some inner hidden goal and Lojban ta= ught them something so that they don't need either the language or the = community anymore.

They don'= ;t need the bullcrap that surrounds both. That's what it is. Many such = people make these decisions against what their hearts tell them, but sanity= is more important than appeasement.
=C2=A0
And that's = great since without tinkering more space will be provided for new learners = to come.

There is space; there&= #39;s little incentive. The halls have been decked with spikes.
=C2=A0
I don=E2=80=99t know if I have much more to say. But most importantl= y, y=E2=80=99all=E2=80=99s utter inability to =E2=80=98read the room=E2=80= =99 and understand the needs of those who=E2=80=99ve had the largest impact= on the community will eventually make it run dry.
=

You put it right. I don't care of those who already= learnt Lojban.

Dismissal is no= t the right path to take. As I said above, this *will* turn against you.

My role is of little import= ance. Once again, I don't care of fluent speakers. They are free to go.= Newcomers need help.

The people un= ited will never be defeated.

~ ~ ~
<= br>
Perhaps it's time to do the right thing =E2=80=94 fork.

Please, create a new name = for it. LoCCan3 of whatever
=C2=A0
Someb= ody (maybe me myself, who knows) should do God's work and rethink the g= rammar, rethink the vocab, rethink the approach. Because if you stick to be= ing stuck and you're stuck in being stuck, then the people watching who= have enough integrity to step back and distance themselves a little so the= y're not dragged into the pit will leave you be. And that's what yo= u want =E2=80=94 to be left alone. But a committee doesn't exist with a= community, and since the community has pretty much dispersed, the committe= e has failed to serve it.

I'm not going to dra= g this pointless rowing about for any longer; it's Easter and I'm s= upposed to rejoice with my family. All I can say is: if you are sure you kn= ow what you're doing and you're so adamant to keep at it, then powe= r to you. However, it's you who'll face the consequences, and hurti= ng others is one such consequence.

<= /div>
It's a volunteer work. I know what I'm doing.
<= br>
P.S. Sorry for not answering to all the replies. Some looked = to me like containing some harsh language.


=E2=80=94 M=E1=BB=89 H=E1=BB=8Fash=C4=AB j=C3=AD ka.<= br>

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